Havergal Brian.

[John Whitmore]

My old friend Nigel Pinkett phoned me out of the blue for a chat yesterday. He's Eric's son. The conversation was dominated by Leicester City and their current situation but we got onto Brian. He said what a memorable occasion it was playing in the Proms Gothic and that there was a great camaraderie and loads of fun when the 2 orchestras got together. I hadn't previously twigged that he would be in it but he left the RPO after 30 years with them and moved to the BBC, hence his involvement. He quite liked the music.Thought I would share this.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, John! And so the LSSO/Brian connection goes on.

[John Whitmore]

Thanks, John! And so the LSSO/Brian connection goes on.

I will buy the Heritage set and send it to him as a pressy. He was chuffed to find out about this latest reincarnation. Very fine cellist, played in the LSSO and left them in 1963 so he's a different generation to me. He was one of the section leaders I used to look at and listen to in awe when I was barely in my teens in the LSSO feeder groups. I remember him in the William Tell overture and thinking "blimey!" We developed a friendship once I started to organise reunions etc 15 years ago. He's very proud of his Dad, of course.

[cilgwyn]

Thank you for telling us about this,John. It's nice to think that there was some kind of connection there! !

[cilgwyn]

Finally made that cd-r of Brian's English suites. For some reason (there appeared to be enough room) I couldn't burn all four,so I settled for Suites 1,3 & 4. Ooh these are entertaining! In fact,they sound even better in sequence. Jam packed with invention,colour,humour,good tunes. I think they are marvelous.In a just world they would be popular and,in their own way,I think they are just as inspired as his best symphonies. In fact,what not to like about Brian's 'lighter' muse? And that has to include The Tinker's Wedding and Festal Dance. What a wonderful,satisfying composer. Who cares what anyone else thinks,I love his music!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hear hear!

[jon rady]

Hi, ...I have been away a while listening to rather a lot of music lately, from 1600 to 2000 AD, to try and determine what I actually think of Havergal Brian's music in relation to everything else.  Well I think rather a  lot of it now actually... I may be a complete idiot, but there is a heck of a lot of boring stuff out there, lots of 20th C composers who, quite honestly are pretty crap (lets forget the millions of 19th C ones), or at least those that do not hold ones attention.

Conversely, listening to even early  Brian, such as the early English Suites, they are all rather good, and why are they not a staple part of the English classical repertoire.  Quite honestly, even obscure English punk bands from the 1980's get more recognition (I actually quite like some of them).  No 1, to my mind just chucks all the varied criticisms of HB right out of the water - no tunes? etc.  One of his early works and to my ears, a complete mastery of the orchestra is evident  .. ...well that's what it sounds like to me, and if anyone has any specific technical criticisms, then lets hear them...there is too much of, 'oh the bloke did not have a clue what he was doing' comments, even from people who are Brian fans. Can someone come up with some concrete criticisms rather than loads of rather allusive rubbish hearsay from some bloke that happened to play a Brian work in some amateur orchestra in the 70's, (which I have seen on various websites) (present company excepted of course).  Reading lots of stuff, there are a lot of reasons for why Brian's music might be difficult for individual players in orchestras, but I am not convinced that amateurishness (in the derogatory sense) is the reason.  I have just listened to No. 24 at full volume.  Its just absolute Genius.  I don't care if some spotty young horn player has a bit of difficulty getting his mouth round it.  Just listening to lots of works of others, I know that HB could produce the most extraordinary noise from, the brass say, maybe Mahler excepted.   I am now listening to the Burlesque Variations, even earlier, and Ok there are some longeurs, but  the genius, is to my mind, already apparent.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

See p 337 for fellow member Albion's definitive statement about Brian the amateur  (not). I also think Brian's oeuvre is among the most fascinating and entertaining (yes) of the 20th century. It never gets stale. And I have been listening to his music since 1977.

[Luke]

And I have been listening to his music since 1977.

....well, the Gothic is long, it's true. I hope you've taken toilet breaks... 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I hope you've taken toilet breaks... 

No.

[John Whitmore]

Hi, ...I have been away a while listening to rather a lot of music lately, from 1600 to 2000 AD, to try and determine what I actually think of Havergal Brian's music in relation to everything else.  Well I think rather a  lot of it now actually... I may be a complete idiot, but there is a heck of a lot of boring stuff out there, lots of 20th C composers who, quite honestly are pretty crap (lets forget the millions of 19th C ones), or at least those that do not hold ones attention.

Conversely, listening to even early  Brian, such as the early English Suites, they are all rather good, and why are they not a staple part of the English classical repertoire.  Quite honestly, even obscure English punk bands from the 1980's get more recognition (I actually quite like some of them).  No 1, to my mind just chucks all the varied criticisms of HB right out of the water - no tunes? etc.  One of his early works and to my ears, a complete mastery of the orchestra is evident  .. ...well that's what it sounds like to me, and if anyone has any specific technical criticisms, then lets hear them...there is too much of, 'oh the bloke did not have a clue what he was doing' comments, even from people who are Brian fans. Can someone come up with some concrete criticisms rather than loads of rather allusive rubbish hearsay from some bloke that happened to play a Brian work in some amateur orchestra in the 70's, (which I have seen on various websites) (present company excepted of course).  Reading lots of stuff, there are a lot of reasons for why Brian's music might be difficult for individual players in orchestras, but I am not convinced that amateurishness (in the derogatory sense) is the reason.  I have just listened to No. 24 at full volume.  Its just absolute Genius.  I don't care if some spotty young horn player has a bit of difficulty getting his mouth round it.  Just listening to lots of works of others, I know that HB could produce the most extraordinary noise from, the brass say, maybe Mahler excepted.   I am now listening to the Burlesque Variations, even earlier, and Ok there are some longeurs, but  the genius, is to my mind, already apparent.

It's not purely hearsay. Read what Alan Watkins had to say here and he was a huge fan:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/Brian_LSSO.htm
Also, Bob Simpson himself was very critical about Brian's orchestration and quirky balances which may or may not have been due to the composer not being able to hear his music in the flesh and therefore not being able to modify his scores. Some of the players at the Proms Gothic - although they loved the experience - were less than glowing in their praise of the orchestral writing. These were articulated on the radio and I've also heard similar comments from friends who took part in the concert. Charles Groves,despite the Liverpool recordings, was less than enthusiastic. There's no point in banging on about specific deficiencies. I can think of nothing more boring but there are deficiencies. Unless you play an instrument it's really hard to explain. The writing is never quite "under the fingers" so to speak. It's also worth bearing in mind that Brian owes an awful lot to amateur orchestras. Indeed, these orchestras bought the music of Brian into the public domain when there was no public appetite for such music. I'm thinking of Heriot School, Hull and Leicestershire here. Even the magnificent Brisbane Gothic was largely amateur and let's not forget Bristol university either. It's not just spotty young horn players (your description not mine) that have issues. The pros do too. 

[cilgwyn]

I wonder who that "bloke" is?!!
Even if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing. I think these Dutton and Naxos cds are doing a huge amount for Brian's music. I think they may eventually be seen as ground breakers. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy nit-picking,though. It shows you are really listening and thinking about what you are listening to. Unlike John,for example,while I do have occasional doubts,as soon as I start listening again,the doubts subside. I mean,why do I go on listening? Why have I got all the Brian cds available (minus the earlier Marco Polo ones,which I think didn't do his music justice). Why have I got a big wad of Brian cdr-s in a box? He keeps pulling me back. Must be a good reason!
I hope these Naxos and Dutton recordings continue. I even think that they should re-do some of the earlier Marco Polo recordings when they have finished doing say,Symphonies 2,and,hopefully No 3,next.

I just saw John's reply,by the way!

[John Whitmore]

I wonder who that "bloke" is?!!
Even if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing. I think these Dutton and Naxos cds are doing a huge amount for Brian's music. I think they may eventually be seen as ground breakers. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy nit-picking,though. It shows you are really listening and thinking about what you are listening to. Unlike John,for example,while I do have occasional doubts,as soon as I start listening again,the doubts subside. I mean,why do I go on listening? Why have I got all the Brian cds available (minus the earlier Marco Polo ones,which I think didn't do his music justice). Why have I got a big wad of Brian cdr-s in a box? He keeps pulling me back. Must be a good reason!
I hope these Naxos and Dutton recordings continue. I even think that they should re-do some of the earlier Marco Polo recordings when they have finished doing say,Symphonies 2,and,hopefully No 3,next.

I just saw John's reply,by the way!

Dunno. I decided not to take offence.

[Mirror Image]

Even if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing.

The problem I continuously run into with Brian's music is memorability. I think he's an interesting 'in-the-moment' kind of composer, but I soon forget everything I've heard after a work has finished.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The problem, if it is that, is Brian's concision. He needs to be 'unpacked', which only repeated hearings can give you. I know most of Brian by heart - so Brian, literally, is a very 'memorable' composer, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps you need to be attuned to his idiom, an idiom which never posed insurmountable problems for me. I had to struggle with a few of the later symphonies, though; but I knew that the apparent impenetrability would evaporate in due course.

[Luke]

Likewise - though I couldn't say I know all of Brian by heart, there are many symphonies which I certainly do.  His idiom is potent, to be sure.

[Luke]

As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO

[John Whitmore]

As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO

We will wake up in a minute. A staggering achievement,Luke. Truly staggering.The Beethoven 9 of football!!! 

[John Whitmore]

As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO

A very interesting view, Luke. Brian is awkward but that adds to the music. I can live with that. It's just horrible to play!! When were you in the Foxes Philharmonic by the way? Mid 80s or later?

[Luke]

Re the first reply - It is, literally, unbelievable, isn't it? And yet, somehow, wonderfully, it is true. 

Re the second - a bit later. 1992-4. Not the orchestra at its greatest, but it seemed pretty good to me. We played the Rudolfinum in Prague, Les Invalides in Paris, we premiered major works by Kancheli and Woolrich (both conducted by Brabbins, actually, to continue the Brian theme). It was all in all a fabulous time, but as a fledgling, teenage Brianite I was always well aware that I should have been around a few decades earlier....