Counterpoint

[Ten thumbs]

I remember reading in Brahms' biography by Jan Swafford that Brahms thought Dvorak  needed to improve his counterpoint.

Counterpoint is definitley one of Brahms's strong points, his music is full of it. I think there is some confusion between counterpoint and fugal writing. You will find in the Romantic era that so-called accompaniment has become a hot-bed of counter-melodic motifs. Schumann is another case in point. As I am studying Fanny Mendelssohn in particular I can confirm that her music is rich in counterpoint, which is hardly surprising in view of her devotion to and deep knowledge of Bach's music.

[Larry Rinkel]

Counterpoint is definitley one of Brahms's strong points, his music is full of it. I think there is some confusion between counterpoint and fugal writing. You will find in the Romantic era that so-called accompaniment has become a hot-bed of counter-melodic motifs. Schumann is another case in point. As I am studying Fanny Mendelssohn in particular I can confirm that her music is rich in counterpoint, which is hardly surprising in view of her devotion to and deep knowledge of Bach's music.

No one is denying the presence of counterpoint in Romantic music. Chopin was a superb contrapuntist, even though his one extant fugue is a disappointing exercise for two voices in A minor. Nonetheless, there is a decided difference between the use of counterpoint within a basically homophonic texture, and the predominant use of polyphony as found in Bach.

[Ten thumbs]

No one is denying the presence of counterpoint in Romantic music. Chopin was a superb contrapuntist, even though his one extant fugue is a disappointing exercise for two voices in A minor. Nonetheless, there is a decided difference between the use of counterpoint within a basically homophonic texture, and the predominant use of polyphony as found in Bach.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a basically homophonic texture, expecailly when the needs of melodic line begin to override traditional harmony, as they do in the Romantic period. There is not that much differnece between a two part invention and a lied with an independent piano part.

[Larry Rinkel]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a basically homophonic texture, expecailly when the needs of melodic line begin to override traditional harmony, as they do in the Romantic period. There is not that much differnece between a two part invention and a lied with an independent piano part.

Please cite an example of a "lied with an independent piano part" and show me how it resembles a "two part invention" (I assume you're referring to those of Bach).

[bwv 1080]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a basically homophonic texture, expecailly when the needs of melodic line begin to override traditional harmony, as they do in the Romantic period. There is not that much differnece between a two part invention and a lied with an independent piano part.

Actually it moved the other way, a significant number of romantic melodies are not really comprehensible outside of their harmonic context (the Prelude for Tristan for example).  Classical period and Baroque melodies typically fully outline the underlying harmony whereas the chromaticism of Romantic harmony creates situations where the melodic line on its own does not make much sense outside of its harmonic context ( again like Tristan or the Em Chopin Prelude)

[Haffner]

Beethoven, Mahler and Mozart had written counterpoint on par with Bach.

Three of Joseph Haydn's quartets op.20 have brilliant fugal/counterpoint examples, and his mid-to later String Quartets have more subtle, often even more brilliant, passages.

[Haffner]

That would normally cause much joy, but he did it in such a yucky way...

Yea.

[jochanaan]

But counterpoint is not just limited to imitative counterpoint, that is, fugues, canons, and others where different voices may play the same melody at different times.  It also includes things like that passage toward the end of the Meistersinger prelude where three very different themes are played at the same time.  In fact, any time you have more than one note sounding at the same time, you have counterpoint.

Composers who are "good at counterpoint" are those composers who make the inner voices nearly as interesting and perfect as the principal melody, and who are able to meld several melodic/harmonic strands into a complex, integrated whole.  This includes not only Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and other commonly-recognized "contrapuntal masters," but also composers like Berlioz, Wagner, and Rachmaninoff, all of whom in their own ways united many different voices into interesting and moving (an understatement!) compositions.

I would also like to mention Bartók, who not only wrote a masterful fugue in his Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, but whose part-writing is as interesting and perfect as it gets.

[Ten thumbs]

Please cite an example of a "lied with an independent piano part" and show me how it resembles a "two part invention" (I assume you're referring to those of Bach).

On reflection, my comparison is not exactly what I meant. The point is that the pianist is not merely adding harmony but also playing other melodic material (which may differ from that of the singer) in counterpoint and not over the same phrase lengths. To give some examples from the great lieder writers, look at Schubert's 'Das Heimweh', 'Liebesbotschaft', 'An Schwager Kronos' or Fanny Mendelssohn (Hensel)'s 'Sehnsucht', Kein blick der Hoffnung', Die Mainacht'.
The point I was making about harmony is that sometimes the composer is not concerned with harmonic clashes produced when two melodic lines come together, that is analysis of the chord becomes irrelevant. For example:
Upper melody line  D   Db   C   Bb   A   Bb
Harmony              Bb  Bb   G   Eb   Eb  D
                          G    G    C   C     C   Bb
Bass melody line   D    Eb   E   F     F§  G
Pedal                   D    D    D   D    D   D

or the following rather bitter resolution to Db major (R.H part):
                          Dd        C    Bb    Ab    Gb   F      Eb Db
                          Ab     DbF EbC Db D Bb G AbGGbCGb F   

I think all this reflectes is that composers were beginning to use harmony and counterpoint in a more versatile manner.

[mahlertitan]

admit it people, counterpoint sucks! who would want to listen to 20 minutes of counterpoint? utterly pointless, it's no accident that it went out of the fashion.

but, i don't mind composers using a little contrapuntal stuff in their symphonies though.

[Josquin des Prez]

who would want to listen to 20 minutes of counterpoint?

Today i just listened to 6 hours straight of Renaissance polyphony (sprinkled with some Romantic stuff). I must be crazy or something, hu?

[mahlertitan]

Today i just listened to 6 hours straight of Renaissance polyphony (sprinkled with some Romantic stuff). I must be crazy or something, hu?

yes, that's correct, i'll shoot myself if someone makes me listen to say 1 hour of that stuff.

[Haffner]

admit it people, counterpoint sucks! who would want to listen to 20 minutes of counterpoint? utterly pointless, it's no accident that it went out of the fashion.

MT, if you're not joking, then I should probably point out that there is alot of brilliantly creative counterpoint all over Mahler's symphonies, as well as many other composers you seem to admire.

I get the feeling that you at least mostly knew that anyway .

[mahlertitan]

MT, if you're not joking, then I should probably point out that there is alot of brilliantly creative counterpoint all over Mahler's symphonies, as well as many other composers you seem to admire.

I get the feeling that you at least mostly knew that anyway .

counterpoint is a device, not music, you use it, but don't make it.

[Mozart]

I come to wonder if its important for me to learn any of this stuff. When I am fully immersed in a piece of music, I don't think to myself 1st theme 2nd theme development section...Im just following every note mentally. I know the development section is different but I don't really care about comparing it to the exposition, nor if the recap happens to be different.

[Haffner]

counterpoint is a device, not music, you use it, but don't make it.

Good point, M. Listening to exercises is pretty damn pointless, right?

[Scriptavolant]

counterpoint is a device, not music, you use it, but don't make it.

Not at all. Great composers made it, the other used it. Wasn't Ludwig Wittgenstein that stated that the relationship between a composer and form is at the fulcrum of all musical creation?
Your sentence reminds me bitterly of those ultra-romantic biased followers which seem to be convinced that the only great music ever written is the music composed between 1811 and 1899.

And then I'd like to add that it's true that counterpoint had been widely used even throughout the Romantic period, but as someone else's stated, there is a great difference between its usage, say, in Palestrina, Bach or in Wagner and Beethoven.
The Romantic period is mainly homophonic (don't know, maybe someone is getting that as an insult?).

[mahlertitan]

Not at all. Great composers made it, the other used it. Wasn't Ludwig Wittgenstein that stated that the relationship between a composer and form is at the fulcrum of all musical creation?
Your sentence reminds me bitterly of those ultra-romantic biased followers which seem to be convinced that the only great music ever written is the music composed between 1811 and 1899.

And then I'd like to add that it's true that counterpoint had been widely used even throughout the Romantic period, but as someone else's stated, there is a great difference between its usage, say, in Palestrina, Bach or in Wagner and Beethoven.
The Romantic period is mainly homophonic (don't know, maybe someone is getting that as an insult?).

i am not an ultra-romantic, don't put labels on people, labels are bad.

[Kullervo]

The Romantic period is mainly homophonic

Sorry, but that's wrong.

[Scriptavolant]

i am not an ultra-romantic, don't put labels on people, labels are bad.

I didn't. I wrote "reminds me of those ultra-romantic", the finger was pointed on another way.

Sorry, but that's wrong.

Well, then let's talk about it.