Live vs recordings: what are you missing?

[DavidW]

This is a tangent from the 5 worst composers thread.  And no it's not me bludgeoning someone for not liking Mozart!

Dana said

      Have you heard either of these composers live? I don't think people should be allowed to say things like that if they haven't heard it live. It's like watching a football game on TV and then saying it's a stupid sport - you're really only getting half of the picture. There's absolutely nothing in the world like a good Mozart string quartet - but you'll rarely get that from a recording.

ps-- large high def tv is better than sitting in the nose bleeds, just saying... 0:)

I replied after an exchange between Dana and Don,

Hearing something live is awesome BUT it's not so revelatory that recordings are a poor copy in comparison.  There are some concerts that just completely blew my mind, but it's mostly the excitement of the evening.

Here is what I think is missing on a recording that you get in a live concert: it's very possible to hear the timbre of the individual instruments in a chamber orchestra, and depending on acoustics, even symphony orchestras sound less mushy live.  You also don't really have a sense of how much a symphony orchestra can project in a cd, but you can live.  And by project I mean VOLUME, and the quick changes in dynamics with that ability to produce very loud are quiet volumes are pretty impressive.  In a large hall the sound really fills the room and sounds spacious in a way you can't get in your living room.  Also the biggest thing for me, is that all instruments sound warm with a very smooth treble roll off.  Even harpsichords sound pleasant and not abrasive, something you don't get on a cd.

However it's still the same music, and cds (well recorded, engineered cds that is) do capture the nuances of a performance.  If you don't like it recorded, chances are you won't like it live (as I've seen myself) and I don't consider hearing the music live to be essential to judging the music.

And what do you think?  How much better is live, and does it make a difference for liking a piece?

[Bogey]

Great thread, David!

I have to say that for me, and the few venues I have been to, that I prefer chamber music live and orchestral on cd.  I believe my wife is in this camp as well.  This does not mean that I do not enjoy orchestral live and chamber on cd, as I do, but given a choice, this is the way I would go.

[Bogey]

Oh, and here is why, in general.  Orchestral live always seems to lack the volume I desire (and I am not one to blast music and still it lacks the volume) and with live chamber I am able to better separate the instruments or hear the individual notes from a keyboard with more clarity due to our usual proximity to the performer(s) and being able from time to time focus on just one of them.

[DavidW]

Bill that's interesting, it brings up a very pertinent point: acoustics.  A concert will only sound as good as the acoustics will allow, so orchestra size, room size, and where you sit all matter.  Where do you like to sit in these concerts?  In a moderate sized hall I like the middle, think I go closer to the back in a small hall.

[Bogey]

Bill that's interesting, it brings up a very pertinent point: acoustics.  A concert will only sound as good as the acoustics will allow, so orchestra size, room size, and where you sit all matter.  Where do you like to sit in these concerts?  In a moderate sized hall I like the middle, think I go closer to the back in a small hall.

The same.  Usually in the second section.  The music seems to meld better that way for orchestra.  For chamber, which we usually hear in a church or room off to the side, center and toward the front.

[DavidW]

The same.  Usually in the second section.  The music seems to meld better that way for orchestra.  For chamber, which we usually hear in a church or room off to the side, center and toward the front.

Do you ever catch yourself doing this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvYje3L57zY

[matti]

Do you ever catch yourself doing this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvYje3L57zY

VG, thanks!

[Bogey]

Do you ever catch yourself doing this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvYje3L57zY

LOL!

[Egebedieff]

per DavidW's request
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14137.msg360153.html#msg360153
'

[DavidW]

Thankee sir.

[Superhorn]

  There are advantages to both live and recorded performances.
A live performance can sound more spontaneous than a studio recording,
which may be the result of repeated takes to edit out imperfections, although studio performances can also be very exciting.
  And it's true that an orchestra will sound better on a well-recorded CD than in an concert hall with lackluster acoustics.
  And one advantage of recordings is that they enable you to get to know a work better through repeated hearings.
Let's say some one goes to a concert and one of Schoenberg's 12-tone works is played. Or a work by another challenging 20th century composer. This person might be totally baffled by the work, and possibly hate it and be prejudiced against Schoenberg permanently.
But if that individual would take the time to give repeated hearings of the piece on a recording, and keeps an open mind, it may start to make more sense and seem perfectly comprehensible and coherent, and the listener might  even come to enjoy the music. I know, because this has happened with me so many times.
  That's why we must always be grateful for the existence of recordings.
 

[Brian]

Well, at my university's orchestra, which I attended last night, there's always basically "free seating" - take whatever place you'd like. My favored place is always the second or third row from the very front, on the right-hand side, three or four chairs right of the conductor's podium.

1. Our orchestra is configured with the violas on the front right and cellos inside. It is always very interesting for me to pay special attention to these instruments and the basses, because I inevitably hear lines and under-melodies (is that a term?) that I have never heard before. It happened in the Brahms Second and it happened in the Beethoven Leonore Overture, when there were a couple moments where I heard bass and viola phrases that made me realize all over again what a genius Beethoven was.
2. There's never a problem with sound when you sit that close, although the winds are not as easy to pay close attention to.
3. I like watching the players. I like watching their body language. Are they moving about in their chair? Are they sitting perfectly still? What about facial expression? One violinist looked like a frog. A couple people have totally blank stares; some furrow their brows in concentration; but a few people, very few, smile and laugh and frown and generally look as if they are in love. A few close their eyes occasionally and listen to themselves; a few watch solo players from other sections in admiration. At one point in the Ravel there's a delicious lick on the piccolo, and as it began I caught a cellist bursting into a huge grin. That is why I go to live performances.

[Tomo]

Great topic, David.  Overall, if I had to choose, I'd opt for recordings, but really would have a hard time with never having the opportunity to see music live.

Live has the advantage, as mentioned by Superhorn, of that spontaneous feel, where you never know what is going to happen.  I don't believe you can achieve the sense of air at home that occurs during a live performance at a good venue.  Live also allows me to focus on specific performers which I invariably do.  

I also enjoy the sense of occasion which a live performance provides.  I enjoy mingling with the crowd and hanging out in the lobby before a performance and during intermissions (I don't enjoy the lines for the bathroom).  I think this aspect lends better toward introducing a newcomer to classical.  As was the case with my mom all those years ago when I was introduced via a Pinchas Zuckerman performance of a Mozart violin concerto, both of my daughters were initiated to classical by me taking them to live performances, my eldest was Beethoven's ninth symphony and my youngest to Four Seasons.  They were excited to dress in gowns and my youngest was taken by Josh Bell's very entertaining body movements and facial expressions.  We were sitting very close to the front and she excitedly exclaimed that she felt he was going to jump out into the audience with his aggressive movements.

On the other hand, you are stuck to the seat...and the people sitting beside you.  Ever have a talker or cougher right next to you the whole evening?  And, this may apply only to me, but, unlike home where you can hit a pause button, there isn't any way to get up and relieve yourself should the need occur.  

Also, what if the performance sucks?  A couple of years back, my eldest took me to a performance of The Magic Flute at her college (yes, she takes me now!).  As much as I appreciated their game effort, they just couldn't carry it out.  Truth be told, they couldn't hit the right notes at all.  Another time, the Cleveland was in town.  I loved the Dutilleux, but for their encore, they played Ravel's Bolero.  I never realized that I had burned out on that piece until that moment.  Kind of like "Stairway to Heaven", once loved, then played too much, then Ugh!!!  At home, I could have just put another recording on.  Not the case with being at a concert.

A final note is the cost of hearing something live, especially when buying four tickets, refreshments, dinner out (always do it) is many multiples over buying a CD.  With a concert, you only hear it once; with the CD, you can hear it whenever you choose.

With recordings, you get to hear great performances to fit your mood at the moment, at your convenience, and at a volume that suits your want at that moment.  If I want in-your-face Shostakovich, insert Kondrashin; if I want Shostakovich without fangs, here comes Haitnik.

Oh, what if I want to listen without clothes?  Can't do that at a concert hall, can I?  What if I want to twirl about while singing out of key?

[Dana]

Also, what if the performance sucks?

      That's what I find really makes recordings incredibly valuable. Nowadays in the States, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an orchestra, which is fantastic. On the other hand, none of these orchestras will ever be confused for the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. Moreover, there is no overestimating the value of being able to hear the original Borodin String Quartet play the Shostakovich Quartets, or David Oistrakh play the 1st Shostakovich Concerto, or Furtwangler conduct Brahms' 4th Symphony. I love these recordings because they grant me access to a special kind of event that I otherwise never would.

Oh, what if I want to listen without clothes?  Can't do that at a concert hall, can I?  What if I want to twirl about while singing out of key?

Another strength of recordings I may have to consider in the future.

      Regardless, I still swear by live performances. Every once in a while you'll come across something like Reiner's Sheherezade, where the performers really brought it in front of the microphone but you'll very rarely come across a recording that manages to match the kind of energy inherent in a live performance. Music and drama are unique among the arts in that they exist within time and space - if an author writes a book, or if an artist creates a painting, the work is created, and henceforth exists until the end of time, unless it is destroyed. A musical event is something to be shared between a performer and an audience, and if you told me that I was going to be performing for a microphone for the rest of my life, and not people, I'd get out while I still could. The one thing I feel like I can say definitively about music is that it is about communication. A recording won't appreciate your applause at the end, and all I feel when I get done recording is a letdown that the performance is over.

[Bogey]

      That's what I find really makes recordings incredibly valuable. Nowadays in the States, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an orchestra, which is fantastic.

[jochanaan]

When you go to a concert or other live "event," there's a spirit-soul connection formed for those few moments.  You can possibly get it from some recordings, but it's much stronger at a concert.

Also, there's definitely a difference between produced and reproduced sounds.  (This difference is mostly destroyed if any musicians are amplified. )

[owlice]

I prefer live music, and yes, it makes a difference for liking a work. I'll listen to Mozart in the concert hall (because his music gets programmed with stuff I actually want to hear), and I've even sat through Bolero in a concert hall and not hated it so much (I enjoyed watching it a lot). Me listening to Bolero without someone's having tied me down to force me to listen to it... and paying for it, even!

Live is definitely better. Besides, if people didn't go hear live music, we'd have all these unemployed musicians running around, and you know what that means: mayhem and havoc in the streets!!!

[Dana]

[Sergeant Rock]

Orchestral live always seems to lack the volume I desire----

 

Bill, you obviously haven't heard the Gurrelieder at the Alte Oper in Frankfurt, or the Mahler Sixth at Severance in Cleveland, or the Mahler Eighth at the Philharmonie in Berlin or the Third at the Gewandhaus in Leipzig. The unamplified sound of a great orchestra in full flight in a great hall is overwhelming and will leave your ears ringing  

My favored place is always the second or third row from the very front, on the right-hand side, three or four chairs right of the conductor's podium.

You and Mrs. Rock prefer the same general area (although she likes the first row so there won't be any distracting, bobbling heads between her and the music). I do prefer front row balcony but we usually sit where she likes now. It has advantages: the sound is really in your face; impactful. We're heaing what the conductor is hearing. Being on the right side near the basses, the bottom of the sound spectrum is reinforced and I like that. Plus our local band has a really hot blonde viola player who sits at the edge of the stage: it's nice being within touching distance of her...and Mrs Rock thinks I'm dreamily contemplating the music   ...I keed, I keed  

As to the question of live vs memorex: despite a personal library numbering 10,000 plus CDs and LPs, it's live for me. I have a very good sound system but it pales in comparison to the real thing. A work like the Mahler Eighth simply can't be duplicated in your living room. With chamber works you miss the extremely interesting interplay between the players, the body language. It's fascinating to watch a great string quartet in action. It really adds something to the experience, and to the music.

Sarge

[Bogey]

Bill, you obviously haven't heard the Gurrelieder at the Alte Oper in Frankfurt, or the Mahler Sixth at Severance in Cleveland, or the Mahler Eighth at the Philharmonie in Berlin or the Third at the Gewandhaus in Leipzig. The unamplified sound of a great orchestra in full flight in a great hall is overwhelming and will leave your ears ringing  

Sarge

And as for your added preference of live performances, Sarge,  you of all folks here should not forget the autographs that Mrs. Rock is more than willing to get for you following many a concert.