What is the cause of the high divorce rate?

[Scarpia]

Could be anything. I probably find the most satisfaction in learning, for example. A lot of people put the whole meaning of their existence into relationships, which is kind of sad.

That is a bit bizarre.  What is there to being human, except the relationships we have?  I can see an objection to focusing entirely on one relationship, but where can you find meaning except in relationships?  I certainly find learning satisfying, but what is the point of learning if you don't share it with other people?

[MishaK]

You just have given Scarpia his knock-out.

But is investment in a relation really the only way of having a meaningful life? Sounds rather as a waste to me. What about creation, what about listening to music, what about giving shape to your own life?

Henk

Humans are social animals. We're just coded that way. There is no way of escaping it. If you don't learn how to build meaningful long-lasting relationships (in a broad sense of the word), you run the risk of living out a pretty miserable old age. Virtual relationships on internet forums and facebook can't make up for the deficit. 

[Henk]

Could be anything. I probably find the most satisfaction in learning, for example. A lot of people put the whole meaning of their existence into relationships, which is kind of sad.

Let me answer in a way of displaying some ideas of Arnold Cornelis:

Yes learning, and especially learning to steer ones own learning processes, learning from inside to outside, that's the only way of learning, following our internal clock, though eduction is organised otherwise today (from outside to inside, with the pressure of the external clock).

The internal clock is the clock of ourselves, where there is real time of learning and development. The social clock, the clock of our watch is time displaying only time as repetition, as a spatial dimension and of change coming from outside.

And learning then eventually becomes creative as communication, when our place in the social system isn't longer satisfying and suitable for learning. But as the world changes rapidly (the social clock speeds up), one has to retard ones internal clock instead, to keep on learning and to stay creative.

Henk

[Scarpia]

I'm having difficulty understanding the Arnold Cornelis stuff.  However learning and eduction are intensely social activities, which is why Universities do such a great job facilitating the growth of knowledge.  Perhaps the act of sitting in a large lecture hall is not the ideal learning experience, but the personal interaction of people interesting in a common subject with peers and mentors is critical.

[Henk]

Humans are social animals. We're just coded that way. There is no way of escaping it. If you don't learn how to build meaningful long-lasting relationships (in a broad sense of the word), you run the risk of living out a pretty miserable old age. Virtual relationships on internet forums and facebook can't make up for the deficit. 

I have nice friends in real life, that's worth much for me. You don't need really a serious love-relationship of living in the same house I think when you have friends. I agree, speaking for myself, that a life without any relationships, an entirely lonesome life will be hard. I'm not far away from such a life, since I don't have contact with my friends on a regularly basis, but you don't have always choice in these things, that's what's tragic about it. A love relationship isn't really possible for me, I'm just to individualistic, I can't let a woman feel that I'm a potential partner for her (though I know the feeling, but can make it into practice), so I have chosen a life as a bachelor. That has token much time to realize, because it's not really normal in our culture, at least from my perception. But my mind is still about a girl I like very much, I have given up the idea of a relation with her (living in the same house), but a relation as a sort of twins, I really like that idea, really fancy and attractive (I got that idea from The Gay Science, Nietzsche, "Songs of Prince Free as a Bird").

H

[DavidRoss]

If marriage is a prison then I'm throwing away the keys...

  Lovely.  Elizabeth Barrett Browning couldn't have said it better. 

We need an angry loners thread

I thought we already had several...wherever certain members congregate. 

Humans are social animals. We're just coded that way. There is no way of escaping it. If you don't learn how to build meaningful long-lasting relationships (in a broad sense of the word), you run the risk of living out a pretty miserable old age. Virtual relationships on internet forums and facebook can't make up for the deficit. 

Most of us.  Let's not forget the significant percentage with serious personality disorders--schizoids, for instance--and other organic anomalies that make them exceptions to the rule.

Let me answer in a way of displaying some ideas of Arnold Cornelis:

There are a number of folks on this site far more insightful than the authorities you quote, if you but took advantage of the opportunity to consider what they offer you.

[Henk]

I'm having difficulty understanding the Arnold Cornelis stuff.

Please let me know what you find difficult and ask questions. I hope I can answer and explain.

Henk

[Henk]

There are a number of folks on this site far more insightful than the authorities you quote, if you but took advantage of the opportunity to consider what they offer you.

What's the matter with the insights of Arnold Cornelis? Why calling him an authority and disqualify him in this way? Why should his insights be in conflict with the insights of others?

I notice that people have resistance with my way of seeking support in Cornelis' philosophy. Why is this? Cornelis' philosophy is a completely friendly philosophy, not in any way changing or influencing the reader, he only clarifies our world view. I just regard it as support for me and support for our society and for human beings to become selfsteering and steer our own learning processes and that of society. And we can use that support as problems are huge.

Henk

[MishaK]

Most of us.  Let's not forget the significant percentage with serious personality disorders--schizoids, for instance--and other organic anomalies that make them exceptions to the rule.

In the vast majority of cases, those personality disorders are the result of nurture, i.e. abuse of some form in early childhood. All of us are still basically programmed to be social animals.

but you don't have always choice in these things, that's what's tragic about it.

Unless you're living solitary on a remote island without access to a conveyance to take you from said island, you do have the choice of going out and meeting people.

A love relationship isn't really possible for me, I'm just to individualistic, I can't let a woman feel that I'm a potential partner for her (though I know the feeling, but can make it into practice), so I have chosen a life as a bachelor.

Here you speak of choice ("I've chosen") when it doesn't really sound that way ("isn't really possible"). I won't speculate about the background, but a given situation you find yourself in does not have to be static. Going beyond it does, however, require some self-examination. You have to be willing to give up a bit of yourself and make yourself vulnerable, in order to have a really intimate relationship, whether sexual or not (not that in my previous discussion I did not say that the relationship needs to be sexual - we are social animals first, sexual second, at best). Bad life experience sometimes causes us to want to shield ourselves from those dangers, but there isn't a way of attaining that sort of mutual bliss without making oneself vulnerable. No risk without reward. Or as someone I forgot once said: "You always have to love like you've never been hurt before."

[Henk]

In the vast majority of cases, those personality disorders are the result of nurture, i.e. abuse of some form in early childhood. All of us are still basically programmed to be social animals.

Unless you're living solitary on a remote island without access to a conveyance to take you from said island, you do have the choice of going out and meeting people.

Here you speak of choice ("I've chosen") when it doesn't really sound that way ("isn't really possible"). I won't speculate about the background, but a given situation you find yourself in does not have to be static. Going beyond it does, however, require some self-examination. You have to be willing to give up a bit of yourself and make yourself vulnerable, in order to have a really intimate relationship, whether sexual or not (not that in my previous discussion I did not say that the relationship needs to be sexual - we are social animals first, sexual second, at best). Bad life experience sometimes causes us to want to shield ourselves from those dangers, but there isn't a way of attaining that sort of mutual bliss without making oneself vulnerable. No risk without reward. Or as someone I forgot once said: "You always have to love like you've never been hurt before."

Nice quote. Well the choice is between the individualistic life style or a life with a long-term relationship. It's impossible to have both. Because the result in my situation is loneliness I call it tragic.

I feel however sad just because I don't have sexual contacts with women. I feel sad all the time I see good looking women passing by on the street, not being able to really connect with them. If I have nice contact with women it mostly is by incidence. But I don't succeed to profit from it (because for example it's in street situations). Of course I try to learn, I think about strategies, but there's a shortage of occasions to try them. If I have contact with a girl, I already feel sadness when I don't know how to act in a way to express my affection, so she possibly notices sadness rather. So I could learn from your quote. There's however a real progress in the way I think about women and how I relate to them. That's what motives me now concerning this matter.

Henk

[MishaK]

Nice quote. Well the choice is between the individualistic life style or a life with a long-term relationship. It's impossible to have both. Because the result in my situation is loneliness I call it tragic.

That's a false dilemma. True individualism is impossible and in any case not really desirable, because it invariably conflicts with your human social instincts.

I feel however sad just because I don't have sexual contacts with women. I feel sad all the time I see good looking women passing by on the street, not being able to really connect with them. If I have nice contact with women it mostly is by incidence. But I don't succeed to profit from it (because for example it's in street situations). Of course I try to learn, I think about strategies, but there's a shortage of occasions to try them. There's however a real progress in the way I think about women and how I relate to them. That's what motives me now concerning this matter.

I'm sorry to hear that. Dating, and even meeting people, can be a minefield. I can't say that I'm an expert in that, since my limited adventures in that field eventually led to a committed relationship and marriage, obviating the need for further exploration. But I do believe you shouldn't give up and should try perhaps other methods. Meeting the opposite sex through mutual friends seems to work best, since the friendship of your peers provides both a welcoming meeting forum and a form of quality control, i.e. you already know that the person isn't a complete freak, since she gets along with your friends.

[DavidRoss]

In the vast majority of cases, those personality disorders are the result of nurture, i.e. abuse of some form in early childhood. All of us are still basically programmed to be social animals.

Regardless of cause, it's worth noting that a significant minority (nearly 10%, IIRC) are either asocial or antisocial, thus lack the capacity to understand the significance of social interactions to the other 90% of us.  And it's possible--even likely--that some persons suffering such impairment frequent this site.

[Henk]

That's a false dilemma. True individualism is impossible and in any case not really desirable, because it invariably conflicts with your human social instincts.

I'm sorry to hear that. Dating, and even meeting people, can be a minefield. I can't say that I'm an expert in that, since my limited adventures in that field eventually led to a committed relationship and marriage, obviating the need for further exploration. But I do believe you shouldn't give up and should try perhaps other methods. Meeting the opposite sex through mutual friends seems to work best, since the friendship of your peers provides both a welcoming meeting forum and a form of quality control, i.e. you already know that the person isn't a complete freak, since she gets along with your friends.

Added this to my previous post:

If I have contact with a girl, I already feel sadness when I don't know how to act in a way to express my affection, so she possibly notices sadness rather. So I could learn from your quote.

I'm just been hurt too much in this field, but must act I'm not, well that's hard, maybe impossible. I just have focused too much on one girl and wasted all my love on her.

My sexual development has just been quite abnormal, as my whole development has been abnormal. I developed to quick sexually and when I should have developed a dramatic regression in my sexual development took place, in that time I also fell in love with that girl, who just played with me. In the same time I began to get interested in other areas in an abnormal way.

I don't know how others develop sexually, but I think that I developed quite abnormal. But I don't regret it, because as a consequence mabye I think my development for myself has been quite fruitful. For myself I have a, though difficult (with sickness and boredom), exciting, adventurous, interesting life.

There's a little thing that also is important, which I keep secret.

Henk

[MishaK]

Regardless of cause, it's worth noting that a significant minority (nearly 10%, IIRC) are either asocial or antisocial, thus lack the capacity to understand the significance of social interactions to the other 90% of us.  And it's possible--even likely--that some persons suffering such impairment frequent this site.

That number seems absurdly high, unless you're using a very loose definition of "asocial" and "antisocial". Source?

Added this to my previous post:

I'm just been hurt too much in this field, but must act I'm not, well that's hard, maybe impossible. I just have focused too much on one girl and wasted all my love on her.

My sexual development has just been quite abnormal, as my whole development has been abnormal. I developed to quick sexually and when I should have developed a dramatic regression in my sexual development took place, in that time I also fell in love with that girl, who just played with me. In the same time I began to get interested in other areas in an abnormal way.

I don't know how others develop sexually, but I think that I developed quite abnormal. But I don't regret it, because as a consequence mabye I think my development for myself has been quite fruitful. For myself I have a, though difficult, exciting, adventurous, interesting life.

Henk,

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but frankly I think you should see a psychologist. Please don't see that as a stigma. I have many good friends who have gone through therapy and it has helped them immensely in gaining control of their life. You seem to be crying out for a kind of help that no one here on this forum is capable or qualified to provide, especially without actually meeting you in person. You live in the Netherlands, right? Last I checked, your country actually provides quite generous benefits that should enable you to see a therapist at little or no cost to yourself. We are all sometimes too involved with ourselves to be able to see ourselves on our own, and it takes an experienced outsider to get us to realize why we do the things we do, and how we can move beyond the stalemate we seem to find ourselves in.

[Henk]

That number seems absurdly high, unless you're using a very loose definition of "asocial" and "antisocial". Source?

Henk,

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but frankly I think you should see a psychologist. Please don't see that as a stigma. I have many good friends who have gone through therapy and it has helped them immensely in gaining control of their life. You seem to be crying out for a kind of help that no one here on this forum is capable or qualified to provide, especially without actually meeting you in person. You live in the Netherlands, right? Last I checked, your country actually provides quite generous benefits that should enable you to see a therapist at little or no cost to yourself. We are all sometimes too involved with ourselves to be able to see ourselves on our own, and it takes an experienced outsider to get us to realize why we do the things we do, and how we can move beyond the stalemate we seem to find ourselves in.

Well, I just wanted to motivate my position regarding long-term relationships a bit, as a consequence of my personal history. Thanks for your recommendation. Talking a bit to myself here also. I haven't told the whole story however:

There's a little thing that also is important, which I keep secret.

Maybe I just don't want a serious relationship, because it will not be satisfying. I want something else, something more satisfying to me.

Henk

[DavidRoss]

That number seems absurdly high, unless you're using a very loose definition of "asocial" and "antisocial". Source?

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/aug2004/niaaa-02.htm

I recall seeing a British survey a few years ago that reported similar figures.

[greg]

Sorry if I was out of bounds,, but after your frequently repeated plan to attain happiness by chemically induced suppression of sexual desire, you seem to be taking apathy to the level of an art form.   

Hehehe... I'm mischievous, aren't I? 

That is a bit bizarre.  What is there to being human, except the relationships we have?  I can see an objection to focusing entirely on one relationship, but where can you find meaning except in relationships?  I certainly find learning satisfying, but what is the point of learning if you don't share it with other people?

I meant "love" relationships.
Well, sharing what you learn is great, of course, but the main thing I get from learning is the feeling of going new places mentally and increasing the amount I know about something. Whether I get to share it with someone is just like an additional bonus, if I can. Actually, I find studying kind of a necessity- or at least a form of rapid acquisition of information. It stimulates the mind, which is what I need when going from day to day to day nothing else does- and that just leads down to a very bad path.

[greg]

Maybe I just don't want a serious relationship, because it will not be satisfying. I want something else, something more satisfying to me.

I wonder... have you had many close friends that are women? Just knowing girls that would be fun to hang out with, even if they were ugly or not girls is a rare thing. They're just different.

What are looking for that is "more satisfying?"

[Henk]

I wonder... have you had many close friends that are women? Just knowing girls that would be fun to hang out with, even if they were ugly or not girls is a rare thing. They're just different.

What are looking for that is "more satisfying?"

Bold girls, good looking girls, I praise them, when do they finally understand and surround me?

Things will get better for me, I hope, when the following will happen (Mistral Wind is that girl, the song is by Prince Vogelfrei in whom I recognize my self):

A DANCING SONG (November, 22 1884)

Mistral wind, you rain cloud leaper,
sadness killer, heaven sweeper,
how I love you when you roar!
Were we two not generated
in one womb, predestinated
for one lot for evermore?

Here on slippery rocky traces
I dance into your embraces,
dancing as you sing and whistle:
you that, shipless, do not halt,
freedom's freest brother, vault
over raging seas, a missile.

Barely waked, I heard you calling,
stormed to where the rocks are sprawling,
to the gold wall by the sea—
when you came like swiftly dashing
river rapids, diamond-splashing,
from the peaks triumphantly.

Through the heavens' threshing basin
I could see your horses hasten,
saw the carriage you commanded,
saw your hand yourself attack
when upon the horses' back
lightning-like your scourge descended.

From your carriage of disaster
leaping to bear down yet faster,
I saw you in arrow form
vertically downward plunging,
like a golden sunbeam lunging
through the roses of the dawn.

Dance on myriad backs a season,
billows' backs and billows' treason—
we need dances that are new!
Let us dance in myriad manners,
freedom write on our art's banners,
our science shall be gay!

Let us break from every flower
one fine blossom for our power
and two leaves to wind a wreath!
Let us dance like troubadours
between holy men and whores,
between god and world beneath!

Who thinks tempests dance too quickly,
all the bandaged and the sickly,
crippled, old, and overnice,
if you fear the wind might hurt you,
honor-fools and geese of virtue—
out of our paradise!

Let us whirl the dusty hazes
right into the sick men's noses,
flush the sick brood everywhere!
Let us free the coast together
from the wilted bosoms' blether,
from the eyes that never dare!

Let us chase the shadow lovers,
world defamers, rain-cloud shovers—
let us brighten up the sky!
All free spirits' spirit, let you
and me thunder; since I met you,
like a tempest roars my joy.

And forever to attest
such great joy, take its bequest,
take this wreath with you up there!
Toss it higher, further, gladder,
storm up on the heavens' ladder,
hang it up—upon a star.

(Nietzsche, The Gay Science)

[Henk]

Of course I try to learn, I think about strategies, but there's a shortage of occasions to try them. If I have contact with a girl, I already feel sadness when I don't know how to act in a way to express my affection, so she possibly notices sadness rather. So I could learn from your quote. There's however a real progress in the way I think about women and how I relate to them. That's what motives me now concerning this matter.

There's another aspect. The sadness I feel from being unable to connect with girls in the way I want, is overruled by my pride. Girls don't notice the sadness, but don't feel a connection with me. I'm not really able yet to use this pride in the way I get around with girls, the sadness is underneath. So when this sadness finally will vanish, things might get better.

Henk