What is the cause of the high divorce rate?

[secondwind]

Stupidity. Are you stupid? I doubt it.

A little harsh, Dave.    I know lots of folks who've been divorced--none of them stupid.  They may have been a bit ignorant of what they were getting into and how to make it work, but certainly not stupid.   

[MN Dave]

A little harsh, Dave.    I know lots of folks who've been divorced--none of them stupid.  They may have been a bit ignorant of what they were getting into and how to make it work, but certainly not stupid.   

Okay. Ignorance! 

[Joe Barron]

A little harsh, Dave.    I know lots of folks who've been divorced--none of them stupid.  They may have been a bit ignorant of what they were getting into and how to make it work, but certainly not stupid.   

Well, thank you, secondwind. I consider my first marriage a tragedy. My second was a disaster. And even as mature as I was when I tok my vows, I couldn't forsee how it would turn out. It's better for everyone that it ended.

[secondwind]

Well, thank you, secondwind. I consider my first marriage a tragedy. My second was a disaster. And even as mature as I was when I tok my vows, I couldn't forsee how it would turn out. It's better for everyone that it ended.

Sorry for your losses and your pain.  It's got to be awful when something that starts with such high hopes and expectations crashes and burns like that.  I married quite late because I didn't have a lot of faith in marriage as an institution or myself as "marriage material", yet I figured a divorce would just about kill me.  Fortunately, by the time I did marry I could at least choose pretty well, and I knew myself and my weaknesses well enough to be up-front with my intended.  None of that is a guarantee, of course, but it helped.  If I had married any younger than I did, I expect I'd be divorced by now just because I wasn't really capable of making that kind of commitment. 

[Guido]

Except people are far, far more miserable today then they were then. Once again, your point is built on a false premise. Traditional families brought happiness. Today to find an happy couple is to stumble upon a statistical miracle.

Finding you commenting on happiness is a truly bizarre predicament.

Do you yourself have a family? I can't picture how such an extreme narcissist could ever produce or nurture one.

[Florestan]

Because duty and self-sacrifice are masculine traits, femininity is inherently ego-centric.

I don't know the US case, but the Romanian society before 1950 has produced very fine examples of duty-bound and self-sacrificing women, wives and mothers which were not statistical anomalies but the norm. They got through two world wars and the very harsh times of the Communist takeover with a moral rectitude and a spiritual fortitude which attracted the admiration and appraisal of all men. They raised their children in the utmost respect of the old values. It is only after Communism took a firm grip on power and did everything to obliterate this generation (in the strictly physical sense, filling the gaols and forced-labor camps with its members, men and women alike) that things started to degenerate to the present level.

[Herman]

No, they are nurturing children, they are not raising them. Only a father can raise a child.

Obviously this nonsense raises the question, how about you?

[zamyrabyrd]

Here's another essay about the decline of marriage, this time from an individual's perspective.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200907/divorce

Do note that the writer's husband sounds like a nice guy, yet the writer grows to dislike him anyway. It's as if she's rebelling at the fact that he's a "modern" husband who treats her like an equal and does the dishes and everything.

What a solipsistic rant. Narcissists like her should not get married. They are anyway too much in love with themselves.

[karlhenning]

A little harsh, Dave.    I know lots of folks who've been divorced--none of them stupid.  They may have been a bit ignorant of what they were getting into and how to make it work, but certainly not stupid.   

Well, but along the lines of there being different kinds of intelligence, I think we're missing the fact that there is a great variety of stupidity out there.

So the same person can exhibit both a band of dazzling intelligence, and a swath of nerve-curdling stupidity.

[karlhenning]

Because duty and self-sacrifice are masculine traits, femininity is inherently ego-centric.

Now, you see, that goes to show how anonymous IDs can mislead.  I had fallen into the misprision that you are male;  but my error on this head had been made clear, by this remark.

[secondwind]

Now, you see, that goes to show how anonymous IDs can mislead.  I had fallen into the misprision that you are male;  but my error on this head had been made clear, by this remark.

Nicely played, sir!

[secondwind]

Well, but along the lines of there being different kinds of intelligence, I think we're missing the fact that there is a great variety of stupidity out there.

So the same person can exhibit both a band of dazzling intelligence, and a swath of nerve-curdling stupidity.

Well, I guess I would say that otherwise intelligent people are nevertheless capable from time to time of doing really stupid things.  Or, I might say, we all have our blind spots--and according to the old saying, love is blind.   

In terms of different kinds of intelligence, I think it is true that there is a kind of inter-personal intelligence that is in short supply.  A lot of us who know how to do many other things (score well on standardized tests, achieve advanced academic degrees, etc.) don't know much about how to communicate with other people on a personal and emotional level, and that is what is needed to make a relationship work.  While it's true that some are endowed by nature with more of this gift than others, it is also true that, like any other skill, it can be improved with training and practice. 

[karlhenning]

Well, I guess I would say that otherwise intelligent people are nevertheless capable from time to time of doing really stupid things.  Or, I might say, we all have our blind spots--and according to the old saying, love is blind.   

In terms of different kinds of intelligence, I think it is true that there is a kind of inter-personal intelligence that is in short supply.  A lot of us who know how to do many other things (score well on standardized tests, achieve advanced academic degrees, etc.) don't know much about how to communicate with other people on a personal and emotional level, and that is what is needed to make a relationship work.  While it's true that some are endowed by nature with more of this gift than others, it is also true that, like any other skill, it can be improved with training and practice. 

Entirely agree.

[Herman]

Well, I guess I would say that otherwise intelligent people are nevertheless capable from time to time of doing really stupid things.  Or, I might say, we all have our blind spots--and according to the old saying, love is blind.   

People in love are 1) not necessarily candid about themselves (they're selling themselves after all) 2) they tend to idealize the person they're after. This can make for nasty surprises later on.

[secondwind]

People in love are 1) not necessarily candid about themselves (they're selling themselves after all) 2) they tend to idealize the person they're after. This can make for nasty surprises later on.

Very true.  A friend of mine calls this the Prince/Princess Charming phase of the relationship.  It is a good argument in favor of long engagements.

[ChamberNut]

People should live with each other for a period of time and have sex, before deciding to get married.

[Herman]

I suspect most people getting a divorce have done so.

[Redbeard]

Have your 20's be your "ME" years.  Don't rush.  Wait until you are in your 30's to get married and have children.

This seems to be the current received wisdom on the topic, and as such I think it overlooks a number of issues which waiting to marry can create.  I appreciate that waiting until your 30s allows you to mature, know yourself, and know others better.  But there are some downsides:

• Both spouses will have become used to either remaining alone, sleeping around, or starting a new relationship whenever things get difficult.
• Part of the message this sends is that marriage is inherently less satisfying than being unmarried, and therefore should be postponed as long as possible.
• Marriage requires large changes to your expectations and priorities.  People in their 20s are far more flexible than people in their 30s.  In your 30s you start off with more of the wrong habits (see bullets above), and are less able to change.
• Since others have already selected first, your choices are fewer.
• If you want to have children, waiting until your thirties to think about marriage forces you to thread the needle.  You have to 1)  Find and marry the right person.  2)  Give the marriage enough time to know it will work.  and then 3)  Start trying to conceive.  While conception for healthy people in their 20s is all you can do to avoid, it can take some time once a woman is in her 30s.  The later they wait, the longer it can take.  Several women my wife knows have inadvertently waited too long, and now are extremely unlikely to ever have children.  Also, risk factors for pregnancy increase at earlier ages than I think most people realize.  Starting at 36, my wife's OBGYN said they have to do extra tests.  Pregnancies at 40 or over are considered "geriatric pregnancies".

So while people shouldn't rush into marriage until they are mature enough to do so, waiting has its own issues.  Perhaps better advice would be to "grow up" by your early 20s, find the right person, get married around mid 20s and then wait say 5 years before trying to get pregnant.

[ChamberNut]

• Part of the message this sends is that marriage is inherently less satisfying than being unmarried, and therefore should be postponed as long as possible.

Isn't this a fact? 

[Herman]

This seems to be the current received wisdom on the topic, and as such I think it overlooks a number of issues which waiting to marry can create.  I appreciate that waiting until your 30s allows you to mature, know yourself, and know others better.  But there are some downsides:

• Both spouses will have become used to either remaining alone, sleeping around, or starting a new relationship whenever things get difficult.
• Part of the message this sends is that marriage is inherently less satisfying than being unmarried, and therefore should be postponed as long as possible.
• Marriage requires large changes to your expectations and priorities.  People in their 20s are far more flexible than people in their 30s.  In your 30s you start off with more of the wrong habits (see bullets above), and are less able to change.
• Since others have already selected first, your choices are fewer.
• If you want to have children, waiting until your thirties to think about marriage forces you to thread the needle.  You have to 1)  Find and marry the right person.  2)  Give the marriage enough time to know it will work.  and then 3)  Start trying to conceive.  While conception for healthy people in their 20s is all you can do to avoid, it can take some time once a woman is in her 30s.  The later they wait, the longer it can take.  Several women my wife knows have inadvertently waited too long, and now are extremely unlikely to ever have children.  Also, risk factors for pregnancy increase at earlier ages than I think most people realize.  Starting at 36, my wife's OBGYN said they have to do extra tests.  Pregnancies at 40 or over are considered "geriatric pregnancies".

So while people shouldn't rush into marriage until they are mature enough to do so, waiting has its own issues.  Perhaps better advice would be to "grow up" by your early 20s, find the right person, get married around mid 20s and then wait say 5 years before trying to get pregnant.

Though my life has been far from a picture of sensibilty and sagacity, these were my thoughts too. I just didn't think I was the right person to make these comments. Two things seem to be cardinal: for most people flexibility wanes as they live longer by themselves. And fertility does get problematic after age thirty.