Headphones

[stingo]

If you haven't checked out the site, head on over to head-fi: http://www.head-fi.org/forums. They have both full size and portable amp threads. It's a great site for info on anything headphone related. I have the HD580 and use a total bithead amp (it's portable and just plugs into a USB). Anyway, very helpful site (people are friendly and have heeps of knowledge on the subject).  And as we say over there, sorry for your wallet!

Thanks for the info - I've heard of the Total Bithead before, and the price seems right. You're happy with yours I'd imagine?

On now: Bach: Mass in B minor.

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks for the info - I've heard of the Total Bithead before, and the price seems right. You're happy with yours I'd imagine?

On now: Bach: Mass in B minor.

Since portable was critical for me (and this a couple of years ago), the bithead was one of only a few choices at the price (there are more now I assume). But it is a solid amp. It is small and light (so great for portability) and easy to use (plugs right in and sets right up on the computer).  I had a problem with the volume control within about a month or two of getting it. They fixed it right up and sent back within about a weak, so service was good too (and no problems since then). Here is a review of it: http://www.dansdata.com/bithead.htm

The 600 and 580 are quite similar, so I assume it would go well with the 600 too. Lots of people use the HD600 and HD650 at head-fi too, so plenty of experience there with it.

FYI: Just finished Alfven's Symphony No 2.

[jlaurson]

Since portable was critical for me...

If portable is not critical (and I don't see myself EVER, EVER leaving the house with HD600 on my head... I'd look like such an Ass, I'd probably want to slap myself back to my senses before the style police arrested me) then these portable "louder-makers" would not be a recommendation... simply based on the requirements. HD600 (and HD580) have an impedance of 300 Ohm... that's not the kind of juice any (and if so only the biggest , non-portable) Bitheads deliver. Much better to get appropriate headphones for portable listening than trying to get HD600s to perform in an environment they were decidedly not meant for.

From everything I read (and I used to devour the literature and all the ghastly hi-fi fora on this topic), Bitheads are not really audiophile gear but serve to bring low output portable sources up to greater noise levels.

Ideally you'd have a HiFi dealer in your region who happens to have two different headphone amps and will let you listen to them at home for a weekend.

[mc ukrneal]

If portable is not critical (and I don't see myself EVER, EVER leaving the house with HD600 on my head... I'd look like such an Ass, I'd probably want to slap myself back to my senses before the style police arrested me) then these portable "louder-makers" would not be a recommendation... simply based on the requirements. HD600 (and HD580) have an impedance of 300 Ohm... that's not the kind of juice any (and if so only the biggest , non-portable) Bitheads deliver. Much better to get appropriate headphones for portable listening than trying to get HD600s to perform in an environment they were decidedly not meant for.

From everything I read (and I used to devour the literature and all the ghastly hi-fi fora on this topic), Bitheads are not really audiophile gear but serve to bring low output portable sources up to greater noise levels.

Ideally you'd have a HiFi dealer in your region who happens to have two different headphone amps and will let you listen to them at home for a weekend.

Then I suggest BOTH of you go over to head-fi and see what is best for you. There is just as much disagreement over which amp works best as there is as to which Mahler 5 is best. Since I do not keep up on this, I cannot say which one might be right one for you (just as I cannot know which Mahler 5 you will ultimately like most). At the time, however, several users with my setup recommended the bithead + HD580 and I can say from experience that they work just fine. Ears (and needs) differ, so this may not be the case for you.

By the way, I don't wear the 580s in public. Can't imagine it actually. 

And you are correct that the best way to figure this out is to listen to some if that is possible.

Edit: Incidentally, the bithead is both a DAC and amplifier, and not all amps are. It is (at least it was considered to be) very good with a computer.

[DavidRoss]

FYI there's some discussion of amps to drive headphones on the first few pages of the headphones thread here.

[Renfield]

Concerning headphones, since the issue was brought up again, let me just note how happy I am with my combo of the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro and the Grado SR80 - they complement each other incredibly well! Ditto on the amplifier, the NuForce Icon Mobile, which for a portable DAC/amplifier combo is fairly amazing (to my ears, and for my present requirements) considering the price.

[Not that I carry either headphones with me when I go outside. But the portability is important to me for travelling, as well as the integrated DAC that is generally not a feature for 'unportable' headphone amps - at least in the price range I'm willing to even consider (>£500)!]

Next up for me, eventually, are an entry-level non-portable amp and a dedicated DAC, given how my most reliable present audio source is a laptop.

[drogulus]

If portable is not critical (and I don't see myself EVER, EVER leaving the house with HD600 on my head... I'd look like such an Ass, I'd probably want to slap myself back to my senses before the style police arrested me) then these portable "louder-makers" would not be a recommendation... simply based on the requirements. HD600 (and HD580) have an impedance of 300 Ohm... that's not the kind of juice any (and if so only the biggest , non-portable) Bitheads deliver. Much better to get appropriate headphones for portable listening than trying to get HD600s to perform in an environment they were decidedly not meant for.

From everything I read (and I used to devour the literature and all the ghastly hi-fi fora on this topic), Bitheads are not really audiophile gear but serve to bring low output portable sources up to greater noise levels.

Ideally you'd have a HiFi dealer in your region who happens to have two different headphone amps and will let you listen to them at home for a weekend.

      I've seen some technical info on the BitHead, and I think it qualifies as audiophile. Read the review by Fremer and Atkinson of the Total BitHead here:

      As for noisy portables, I'm against them. Which ones are those? The ones I'm familiar with measure about the same as CD players, which is why they sound the same. I find that in a quiet environment I have no trouble assessing the inherent noise of a variety of recordings. The quietest ones sound significantly quieter than the average ones, which is exactly what you would expect with a device with good noise performance. For me the more important question is whether the need for an external amp is a little bit oversold considering the availability of high quality 'phones with an impedance that is near optimal, such as my Sennheiser HD280's which at 64 Ohms are just about ideal for my iPod.

     Edit: Fixed link to the review.

Concerning headphones, since the issue was brought up again, let me just note how happy I am with my combo of the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro and the Grado SR80 - they complement each other incredibly well! Ditto on the amplifier, the NuForce Icon Mobile, which for a portable DAC/amplifier combo is fairly amazing (to my ears, and for my present requirements) considering the price.

[Not that I carry either headphones with me when I go outside. But the portability is important to me for travelling, as well as the integrated DAC that is generally not a feature for 'unportable' headphone amps - at least in the price range I'm willing to even consider (>£500)!]

Next up for me, eventually, are an entry-level non-portable amp and a dedicated DAC, given how my most reliable present audio source is a laptop.

      Why do you want a non-portable DAC/amp? I would think the NuForce or Total BitHead would do just as well.

[nut-job]

The only time I've heard the 650s they were not in my own system and were driven by the Musical Fidelity X-Can (v8, IIRC) and one of the Moon integrated CD players--quality stuff that probably did not alter the character of the sound much.  They sounded great to me but a bit lush and bottom-heavy, consistent with Daverz's report, above.  I prefer my AKG 701s, which seem more neutral with detailed and grain-free (but not coldly analytic) highs, accurately authoritative lows, and a sweet and natural midrange...but I have no doubt that I could live very happily with the 650s, had I purchased them instead!

I'm debating Sennheiser HD650 vs AKG K701.  I had a pair of AKG K501s and was very impressed with the clarity and imaging, but found them ultimately unsatisfactory because the low end was weak.  I also had a pair of Sennheiser HD580s, found the low end satisfying, but transparency and imaging not as impressive as the AKG501. 

On specs, the AKG K701 seems to have much better bass response than the AKG K501 did.  Do you find the low end response of the AKG K701 to  be comparable to the competition from Sennheiser?

[DavidRoss]

I'm debating Sennheiser HD650 vs AKG K701.  I had a pair of AKG K501s and was very impressed with the clarity and imaging, but found them ultimately unsatisfactory because the low end was weak.  I also had a pair of Sennheiser HD580s, found the low end satisfying, but transparency and imaging not as impressive as the AKG501. 

On specs, the AKG K701 seems to have much better bass response than the AKG K501 did.  Do you find the low end response of the AKG K701 to  be comparable to the competition from Sennheiser?

I don't have the Senns available for A/B comparison, but my recollection was as above--that the 650s were were very smooth and lush and a bit bottom heavy.  The 701s seem more accurate and detailed but with natural highs--not "etched" but "airy."  (The differences I heard are probably also somewhat due to differences in character of the headphone amps used when auditioning them--the "tubey" MF V8 for the 650s vs the CIA VHP1 for the 701s.)  I don't find the 701s' bottom end deficient.  These cans sound very similar to my main speakers, a pair of Gallo Reference 3.1s, and the bottom end balance of those is very similar to what I hear at the symphony (center right orchestra).

I just looked them up on headroom to get you this frequency response chart and noted that they're selling the 701s for $289--that's $200 less than they want for the 650s, which difference will go a long way toward a decent headphone amp if needed or that new box set featuring the complete recorded works of both Andre Rieu and Yanni!

[nut-job]

Thanks for your comments, DR.  I've looked at the headphone.com data and the K701 has lower bass response compared with the HD650, but more comparable to the HD600 (probably similar to my old HD580).  The frustrating thing is that the K501 data is no longer available since they are discontinued.  I've e-mailed headphone.com to see if they can dig up the K501 data for comparison.

I assume your comparison was between the headphones and orchestra section of Davies Hall.  I remember a chronically irate contributor to another site who complained that Davies was awful because the architects had optimized it to make the orchestra sound like a digital recording.   

[DavidRoss]

Thanks for your comments, DR.  I've looked at the headphone.com data and the K701 has lower bass response compared with the HD650, but more comparable to the HD600 (probably similar to my old HD580).  The frustrating thing is that the K501 data is no longer available since they are discontinued.  I've e-mailed headphone.com to see if they can dig up the K501 data for comparison.

I assume your comparison was between the headphones and orchestra section of Davies Hall.  I remember a chronically irate contributor to another site who complained that Davies was awful because the architects had optimized it to make the orchestra sound like a digital recording.   

Actually, my comparison is between headphones & loudspeakers, the latter compared with the sound at the Mondavi Center only fifteen minutes from home.  I remember when Davies opened.  I lived in Palo Alto then and was an infrequent visitor.  The sound was generally regarded as a disaster, with the screechy highs of early digital in the same period an apt comparison.  However, an extensive and expensive acoustical retrofitting was undertaken many years ago and the sound was much improved.  Here's an article describing the retrofit: http://www.design-workshops.com/projects_pdf/Davies_chronicle.pdf

True that headroom's response curves show the 701s down -3dB at 30 Hz (lowest note on double bass is 40 Hz, on piano is 28 Hz).  The 650s are scarcely more accurate at +2dB -- and they have a long, pronounced hump all the way from low bass to lower midrange.  The 701s are not only flatter throughout the same range, but also throughout the high frequencies, whereas the 650s are down -7dB @ 4000-5000 Hz.  Of course, as you're no doubt aware, measurable data like frequency response are helpful in recognizing egregious faults but otherwise offer little guidance in evaluating sound quality.  That can be determined only by hearing.

[nut-job]

Here's an interesting one:



The one I have now is the Beyerdynamic DT880 (which I like a lot).  (I need another set for a different location.) 

Oddly, the less expensive K601 seems to have a flatter response than the K701.   No bump at 10 kHz, less roll off at low frequencies.   Of course, you are right that the graph doesn't tell you all you need to know about how the thing sounds.  My experience is that the sound of the high frequencies are hard to quantify, but these graphs give a good indication of the  bass response.

BTW, the street price of the HD650 is only slightly higher than the K501 (although they are forbidden to overtly advertise it) and I am currently using a headphone amp from www.headphone.com.  Unfortunately I don't think I'll find a place to audition these locally.  I may have to impose on the vendor to order both and take advantage of their return policy to send back the one I like less.   

[Renfield]

Why do you want a non-portable DAC/amp? I would think the NuForce or Total BitHead would do just as well.

It would undoubtedly do (that is, suffice), but I would much rather employ something altogether more 'heavy-duty' for the AKG 701 / Sennheiser HD650 headphone range when I come around to exploring it - hence 'eventually', in my post above.

[drogulus]

It would undoubtedly do (that is, suffice), but I would much rather employ something altogether more 'heavy-duty' for the AKG 701 / Sennheiser HD650 headphone range when I come around to exploring it - hence 'eventually', in my post above.

     Would this be for the laptop, or do you have another source for the heavy duty amp/DAC. Or is it amp plus DAC in this case?

     Incidentally I do carry my HD 280s with me everywhere I take my iPod. They are the only headphones I use now, and I'm not too concerned about the fact that they look ridiculous, something I can confirm since I've seen a number of people with these 'phones on the bus and subway in recent days. There are also quite a few Grado users out in public sporting the My Favorite Martian look, which I always like to see. What bothers me is when people wear these gigantic headphones that on inspection prove to be $29.00 jobs from Radio Shack. Why bother? Maybe they are a form of reverse fashion accessory.

[Renfield]

What bothers me is when people wear these gigantic headphones that on inspection prove to be $29.00 jobs from Radio Shack. Why bother? Maybe they are a form of reverse fashion accessory.

Ha.

I probably wouldn't wear my HD 280 on the street, love them as I do, but not because of the looks: it's the weight!

And the heavier duty amp plus DAC would be for the laptop, indeed; or the DAC might not have been necessary (had I a very good sound card, for instance). I'd be feeding the system via USB, as I am at the moment with the NuForce.

[drogulus]

     The most important thing to know about the 280's after you have turned them down is that you must extend them even more than necessary to fit over your ears. In order to be comfortable they must fit loosely on the top of your head. Only then will they not seem heavy. Heavy is IMO more a matter of fit than weight. If you prize the ridiculousness of their appearance (well, OK, not likely) then this headband ballooning out on the sides is the way to go. That's what you need to do to make them comfortable. Once I extended them the headaches went away (yes, I was getting them).

[nut-job]

There has been favorable mention of the NuForce icon here.  How can you explain this remark on the NuForce product page:

Caution: If you have high efficiency speakers with sensitivity > 92db, you might hear high frequency switching noise.

Sounds like an amp designed by incompetent idiots.

http://www.nuforce-icon.com/Product-Icon.htm

I'd go for the BitHead except for the fact that it can't be externally powered except with USB.  To use it as a headphone amp with analog signal input you have no choice but to run it off of batteries (no AC adapter, even as an option).

[drogulus]

I'd go for the BitHead except for the fact that it can't be externally powered except with USB.  To use it as a headphone amp with analog signal input you have no choice but to run it off of batteries (no AC adapter, even as an option).

     When I first read this I thought you must be mistaken. There must be a USB charger that you can use plugged into the wall so you can charge your NiMH batteries or even power the BitHead instead of batteries, just like you can do with other devices. But lo and behold, it appears you're right! None of the power supplies on the Headroom site are for the BitHead.

[nut-job]

     When I first read this I thought you must be mistaken. There must be a USB charger that you can use plugged into the wall so you can charge your NiMH batteries or even power the BitHead instead of batteries, just like you can do with other devices. But lo and behold, it appears you're right! None of the power supplies on the Headroom site are for the BitHead.

It gets worse.  I read on a review site that running off USB it clips at 5V (USP power supply voltage) vs 6V when run off batteries. (That is why the manufacturer says you shouldn't use rechargable batteries, which don't quite meet the spec for a proper AAA battery and only give you 4.8 volts.)   It has a power switch which is (USB power/battery power) when no analog input connected and (power off/battery power) with analog input connected.  Therefore you can't run off USB power when selecting analog source.  I have half a mind to solder a 6V power supply directly to the battery contacts to run it off an AC adapter.

http://www.headphone.com/pdfs/TheBitHeadManual.pdf

[Renfield]

There has been favorable mention of the NuForce icon here.  How can you explain this remark on the NuForce product page:

Caution: If you have high efficiency speakers with sensitivity > 92db, you might hear high frequency switching noise.

Sounds like an amp designed by incompetent idiots.

1. The praise in this thread, at least from my side, has been for the NuForce Icon Mobile, not its big brother.


2. The switching noise applies to connecting with speakers.

2.1. The NuForce Icon seems to me more of a pre-amp or 'auxiliary pre-amp' with a headphone amp thrown into the mix, rather than a speaker amp for discrete use with 'serious' audiophile setups.

2.1.1. I would hazard a guess that the switching noise might not have been deemed a problem, as the use for that amp with speakers would seem to be mostly geared towards the 'power-hungry' crowd, who want something to boost their speakers, rather than the more 'classical' audiophile.


3. It costs ca. $200 - I wouldn't expect miracles for speaker amplification, anyway.


(And, on a personal note, I would not be buying the NuForce Icon for a DAC, either.)