Headphones

Started by Bonehelm, June 10, 2007, 02:50:21 PM

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Scarpia

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 27, 2009, 08:31:12 AM
Minor or not minor, there are parameters, figure of merits that are not up to debate, unlike "so and so is a better composer than so and so". If someone thinks a pair of headphones is better than the other pair, then plot the numbers and let the numbers speak for themselves.

Any chance of abrupt phase shifts in good headphones? Unlikely. Then again you are assuming, which is not science.

FWIW this is the graph versus the Sennheiser 280 again, a pair of headphones costing about 1/6 as much:



Nothing really different until about 20 Khz (yes a little different at 20 hz to DC but you can't tell anyway), which I don't know about you but most people can't hear that well (especially if they are older like myself). So what exactly are you paying for? You can say you got a "better" pair of headphones (and the DENON are better as far as the numbers are concerned) but does it make any real difference in your listening pleasure, unlikely.

You have a creative way with numbers.  The Denons are roughly 3 times the cost, not 6 times.  

The Denons are also flat through the bass response, the Sennheisers have a peak in the inaudible range but nearly 6db dip in the 60-100Hz range, which is the range perceived as deep rich bass (bass violins, etc).   I suspect they will sound quite different.  I'll know soon since I already have a set of HD-280s and the AH-D2000s are on order.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Scarpia on August 27, 2009, 08:55:32 AM
You have a creative way with numbers.  The Denons are roughly 3 times the cost, not 6 times.  

The Denons are also flat through the bass response, the Sennheisers have a peak in the inaudible range but nearly 6db dip in the 60-100Hz range, which is the range perceived as deep rich bass (bass violins, etc).   I suspect they will sound quite different.  I'll know soon since I already have a set of HD-280s and the AH-D2000s are on order.


It's actually more like 4 (DENON = $349 on Amazon, and HD280 = $79 on Amazon). I have a pair of 280s also. Sounds fine but horribly uncomfortable. Got a pair of 555s also, again the size of Mars. Why do they make headphones like that? I have a pair of Bose (the regular non-noise cancelling one), sound isn't great, but light and comfortable, all headphones should be constructed like that.

The point is it isn't fair to compare headphones one costing $80 and the other $350. That's like saying a Lexus LS460 costing upwards of $80k is a better car than a Chevy Cobalt costing under $20K.

Valentino

Assuming, PW? Moi? Ha!
How did the morons manage steal the word audiophile, I wonder.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Scarpia

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 27, 2009, 09:54:31 AM
It's actually more like 4 (DENON = $349 on Amazon, and HD280 = $79 on Amazon). I have a pair of 280s also. Sounds fine but horribly uncomfortable. Got a pair of 555s also, again the size of Mars. Why do they make headphones like that? I have a pair of Bose (the regular non-noise cancelling one), sound isn't great, but light and comfortable, all headphones should be constructed like that.

The point is it isn't fair to compare headphones one costing $80 and the other $350. That's like saying a Lexus LS460 costing upwards of $80k is a better car than a Chevy Cobalt costing under $20K.

Again with the numbers.  If you are going to use Amazon the Denon set is $280, which is close to the 3:1 ratio.  I am uncomfortable with Amazon for pricey items (return policy is weak and they often ship things that others have returned by others as defective).  On headphone.com it is $100 for the HD-280 and $300 for the D2000 (with coupon code). 

I don't like the build of the Sennheiser 280.  They give good isolation from external noise,  but a lot of noise pickup from the cable (jiggling of the cable causes a lot of noise in the headphones) which is why I rarely use them.
 

Scarpia

Anyway, have the Denon D2000 and Sennheiser HD-280 Pro arrived and are in hand.  Despite similar specification, the Denon give by far the better experience.  Much more comfortable, a product with a more refined feel, and most important, a much more refined sound.  The low end is rich and satisfying, but there is no sacrifice of transparency and smoothness of the high end.  Comparing with the Sennheiser HD-280 Pro, the AKG-701, the Sennheiser HD600 (just back from repair) I like the Denon best, based on first impression.

DavidW

Does the Denon have a bass hump or is it pretty natural sounding? (That's always what I wonder when considering closed headphones)

Scarpia

Quote from: DavidW on August 27, 2009, 02:34:04 PM
Does the Denon have a bass hump or is it pretty natural sounding? (That's always what I wonder when considering closed headphones)

My very initial impression is that the bass response is natural sounding.  But again, my impression with most recordings is that they are treble-heavy.

DavidW

Quote from: Scarpia on August 27, 2009, 03:57:29 PM
My very initial impression is that the bass response is natural sounding.  But again, my impression with most recordings is that they are treble-heavy.


I have that impression too with recordings, that's why I like Sennheisers, I wanted a smooth roll off at the high end.  I want to hear what's in that region, but I don't want to feel assaulted by too bright and forward a sound.

Holden

As some have noted the HD280s seem a bit bass shy and need to be driven. I've always wanted a portable headphone amp and to make the experience as painless as possible on the pocket I bought this which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread.

  (mine's black)

It arrived today, I'm listening now and no more bass reticence for the Senns. It's so small (not much bigger than a AAA battery) and only cost me $10 inc shipping. This will revolutionise my listening - especially with my MP3 player.

I've already got it's more sophisticated younger sibling, the E5, in transit somewhere and can't wait to hear that. That cost me $22 all up.

So if you've got phones that are hard to drive then try the Fiio's. For $10 via a reputable E-bay dealer you've got very little to lose.

Cheers

Holden

DavidRoss

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 27, 2009, 08:31:12 AM
Minor or not minor, there are parameters, figure of merits that are not up to debate, unlike "so and so is a better composer than so and so". If someone thinks a pair of headphones is better than the other pair, then plot the numbers and let the numbers speak for themselves.

I'm sure there are others here who misunderstand the value of measurements who will agree with you, but plotting impedence and frequency response curves will tell you no more about how your headphones/speakers actually sound than graphing the relative duration of play of each of the instruments in a given score will tell you how that music will actually sound.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2009, 02:26:31 PM
plotting impedence and frequency response curves will tell you no more about how your headphones/speakers actually sound than graphing the relative duration of play of each of the instruments in a given score will tell you how that music will actually sound.
I agree with that. Personally a $100 headphone and a $400 will sound "different" but I probably can't say which one is going to outperform the other if I plot the numbers. That's why I gave up trying to buy expensive headphones.

THe point is to a lot of audiophiles (and I know people like that) the numbers, graphs, mean everything even though they cannot tell that extra dB or so of difference at 15 or 10 Khz. But they search for perfection. And this I mean no disrespect towards other members of the forum.

Scarpia

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 04, 2009, 06:12:51 AM
I agree with that. Personally a $100 headphone and a $400 will sound "different" but I probably can't say which one is going to outperform the other if I plot the numbers. That's why I gave up trying to buy expensive headphones.

THe point is to a lot of audiophiles (and I know people like that) the numbers, graphs, mean everything even though they cannot tell that extra dB or so of difference at 15 or 10 Khz. But they search for perfection. And this I mean no disrespect towards other members of the forum.

It takes judgement to know what you can learn from technical specs and what you can't.  I found the difference in tonal balance between the AKG-701 and Denon AH-D2000 complete predicable from the specs, the Denon has stronger low frequency response on paper and on my head.  In another case, the Denon AH-D2000 and the Sennheiser HD-280 pro look very similar on paper, but the Denon sounds much better.  The gross features do match, again tonal balance, but Denon sounds much more refined to me, presumably because of better control of mechanical resonances, less distortion and phase deviation, etc, things that can be measured but which are hard to summarize in a simple graph.  In any case, I don't see why the fact that headphone sound is not determined by simple specifications would prevent anyone from wanting to have good headphones.  The best option is to find a place where you can audition them, or buy them from a web sites that allows you to return for refund if you don't like them (such as headphone.com).


Valentino

#272
The link to Siegfried Linkwitz' website (posted above by me) goes a long way in explaining how a very good headphone isn't best for all, even if "all" have the same preferences.
It also shows how a network can be made to make "any" god headphone fit your ears soundwise.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

DavidW

Quote from: Valentino on September 05, 2009, 04:26:31 AM
The link to Siegfried Linkwitz' website (posted above by me) goes a long way in explaining how a very good headphone isn't best for all, even if "all" have the same preferences.
It also shows how a network can be made to make "any" god headphone fit your ears soundwise.

That's not about headphones, it's about earphones.  Difference, those little guys that you cram into your ear have a very high sensitivity, ~120 dB/W.  Many reference headphones are closer to 90 dB/W, and are considered easy to drive if they get anywhere close to 100 dB/W.  It's important to note that because those little iem's are more sensitive, they are also more sensitive to resonant frequencies.  A 30 dB difference is like night and day because it's a logarithmic scale.

Also it's more difficult to design an earphone (also a closed headphone) with a flat response, unlike an open air headphone because a closed space (your ear) tends to reinforce resonant peaks through reflection, and as for the dips those earphones are still a newer technology compared to the headphone.

But also alarm bells ring when someone immediately compares frequency response of headphones vs speakers.  A Speaker should have a flat response.  Headphones (especially Sennheiser) are designed to match the frequency response of the human ear, and thus sound flat by NOT being flat.  Maybe he compensated for that, I don't know but it immediately disturbs me when apples and oranges are compared like that out of either ignorance or the intent to mislead.

DavidW

Anyway that's one of those articles that demonstrates to me the veracity of what Dave is saying.  Those graphs only tell one part of the story, and can not be used to determine the quality of a headphone.  It's just a starting point.  Perhaps the biggest issue is how detailed the sound is, and those graphs simply don't reveal that.  I would certainly hope that anyone that reads that article uses some common sense and doesn't jump to a conclusion like etymotics is a waste of money without actually hearing them first.  It really is simply a form of argument with measurements thrown in to confuse and dazzle the naive reader. :-\

I don't even go by graphs anymore, I just look for popular opinion on head-fi.  If dozens of posters same similar things, I stop thinking it might be group thinking and start thinking maybe it characterizes.  And then I listen for myself. :)

Valentino

Quote from: DavidW on September 05, 2009, 06:13:18 AM
That's not about headphones, it's about earphones.  Difference, those little guys that you cram into your ear have a very high sensitivity, ~120 dB/W.  Many reference headphones are closer to 90 dB/W, and are considered easy to drive if they get anywhere close to 100 dB/W.  It's important to note that because those little iem's are more sensitive, they are also more sensitive to resonant frequencies.  A 30 dB difference is like night and day because it's a logarithmic scale.

Also it's more difficult to design an earphone (also a closed headphone) with a flat response, unlike an open air headphone because a closed space (your ear) tends to reinforce resonant peaks through reflection, and as for the dips those earphones are still a newer technology compared to the headphone.

But also alarm bells ring when someone immediately compares frequency response of headphones vs speakers.  A Speaker should have a flat response.  Headphones (especially Sennheiser) are designed to match the frequency response of the human ear, and thus sound flat by NOT being flat.  Maybe he compensated for that, I don't know but it immediately disturbs me when apples and oranges are compared like that out of either ignorance or the intent to mislead.
First of all: I'm blushing.
Secondly: Linkwitz actually knows what he's writing about, and accusing the guy of intent to mislead is surely based on ignorance.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

DavidW

Quote from: Valentino on September 05, 2009, 06:57:37 AM
First of all: I'm blushing.
Secondly: Linkwitz actually knows what he's writing about, and accusing the guy of intent to mislead is surely based on ignorance.

Actually you can write to mislead ONLY if you know what you're talking about.  It's not ignorant of me to doubt his motives, it's simply cynicism born from experience.  Everyone has an agenda, and it's easy to dupe your readers if they are not as experienced as you, actually very easy.  And it happens all the time.  It obviously is happening here for the reasons I outlined above.  I actually read it and chuckled at it the first time you posted it, but didn't reply until you mentioned it again.

Criticizing high end ear phones, and throwing up one graph (out of several that are needed) to demonstrate what he perceives as poor quality, and then calling upon everyone to simply build their own is not exactly a neutral message from a noble spirit.  Designing the earphone, headphone, or loudspeaker is not difficult, it's a common high school science project, but designing a great one is certainly difficult, and a dyi will most likely sound like junk.  Saying that you could design something on par with Etymotics is highly misleading, and suggesting that the frequency response graph is a sufficient condition for assessing quality is simply ridiculous.

Valentino

Etymotic is new to me. What's their agenda except selling stuff for iPhones?
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

DavidW

Quote from: Valentino on September 05, 2009, 07:44:39 AM
Etymotic is new to me. What's their agenda except selling stuff for iPhones?

What are you talking about?  If that's supposed to logically follow from my post, you'll have to explain it, I can't read your mind. ???

Valentino

I had to look them up, and the first thing I see is a iPhoneGS-approved earpiece...
They seem to be a scientifically sound company, though.
Read the Linkwitz piece again, DavidW, and check for references.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma