Headphones

Started by Bonehelm, June 10, 2007, 02:50:21 PM

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Todd

Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on January 19, 2012, 12:43:38 PMWith demise of most high end audio salons, that would be hard to do!



Where has this occurred?  The total number of shops where I live has been relatively stable.  Of course, in a mid-sized fewer crazy expensive products are available, but the stores are still around.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

stingo

Any suggestions for noise cancelling headphones?

mc ukrneal

Quote from: stingo on February 16, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
Any suggestions for noise cancelling headphones?
What kind of price range? How do you want to use them?
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

nesf

Why are you going for noise cancelling instead of noise isolating?
My favourite words in classical: "Molto vivace"

Yes, I'm shallow.

71 dB

Quote from: nesf on January 17, 2012, 02:23:12 AM
I'm very happy with my Sennheiser HD598s to be honest. They didn't cost an arm and a leg and don't need a lot of amplification which is perfect for my needs at the moment.

Same here. HD598 has a very nice sound field that is close to that of loudspeaker listening.

However, the impedance of HD598 varies a lot (between 50 and 250 ohms!) as a function of frequency. That's why it is VERY important the output impedance of the amplifier is as low as possible to ensure flat response. I don't own any headphone amplifier and I am using my NAD T762 amplifier (headphone socket impedance ~300 ohms) with my HD598. To make this combination work, I have soldered 10 ohm low noise resistors to my headphone extension cable between signal and ground wires. This makes the effective impedance for the headphones as low as ~9.5 ohm (and almost constant over whole frequency range) reducing the bass boost of HD598 at around 100 Hz below 1 dB (it is almost 10 dB without this modification and totally unacceptable). Because the sound level is reduced nearly 20 dB, typically higher background noise level of a home theater amplifier is reduced below hearing threshold. My amplifier is capable of producing loud enough sounds with ease so the attenuation is not an issue at all. I think the sound quality performance of this set-up is high considering that I don't need a headphone amplifier and the two 10 resistors (one per audio channel) cost much less than 1 euros.

This is how acoustic engineers save money and enjoy relatively high sound quality.  ;)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

jlaurson

Quote from: stingo on February 16, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
Any suggestions for noise cancelling headphones?
Quote from: nesf on February 17, 2012, 07:59:47 AM
Why are you going for noise cancelling instead of noise isolating?

Two different things, that... NC is good against a steady background noise (i.e. in an airplane, diffuse background noise, traffic noise, humidifiers at home et al.), NI is good against any noise but will let heavier background noises -- esp. low frequencies -- through. Most if not all NC also have a considerable NI capacity... it's not like there are open-back NC headphones out there.

nesf

Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2012, 09:04:09 AM
Two different things, that... NC is good against a steady background noise (i.e. in an airplane, diffuse background noise, traffic noise, humidifiers at home et al.), NI is good against any noise but will let heavier background noises -- esp. low frequencies -- through. Most if not all NC also have a considerable NI capacity... it's not like there are open-back NC headphones out there.

Indeed. Issues are, NC is generally much more expensive and introduces a level of noise when listening that can be very annoying in situations where NC aren't absolutely necessary (i.e. on an airplane). I've used both, NC are excellent in a constant noise situation and extremely annoying in other situations. NI wins in all other situations for me though.
My favourite words in classical: "Molto vivace"

Yes, I'm shallow.

DavidW

71 dB when you use red it makes it look like a mod came and edited your post! :D

Ah don't you love this forum, it's so wacky!!

Normal person: I plugin my headphones and use them, they sound great.
Gmg poster: I solder resistors to the op-amp to produce a flat frequency response.  Would you like to see some graphs of the voltage output vs frequency that I made? :D

I'm not mocking, heck I check that the volume levels are matched on my speakers with an spl meter.  It's just amusing how many here go the extra mile. :)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2012, 09:53:52 AM
71 dB when you use red it makes it look like a mod came and edited your post! :D

Ah don't you love this forum, it's so wacky!!

Normal person: I plugin my headphones and use them, they sound great.
Gmg poster: I solder resistors to the op-amp to produce a flat frequency response.  Would you like to see some graphs of the voltage output vs frequency that I made? :D

I'm not mocking, heck I check that the volume levels are matched on my speakers with an spl meter.  It's just amusing how many here go the extra mile. :)

I plug 'em in and turn on the player. They damn well better make a suitable sound... :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Todd

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2012, 09:53:52 AMI'm not mocking, heck I check that the volume levels are matched on my speakers with an spl meter.  It's just amusing how many here go the extra mile.




This ain't nothin' compared to headphone sites, though.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

71 dB

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2012, 09:53:52 AM
71 dB when you use red it makes it look like a mod came and edited your post! :D
The idea was to get people's attention because what I wrote is important. The headphone socket impedance of typical loudspeaker amplifiers is far too high for many headphones with more curvy impedance behavior. Since the amplifier manufacturers are reluctant to address this problem, self-made source impedance reduction is needed! Luckily it is relatively easy and extremely cheap to do. The trickiest part is to calculate optimal resistor values.

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2012, 09:53:52 AMGmg poster: I solder resistors to the op-amp to produce a flat frequency response.  Would you like to see some graphs of the voltage output vs frequency that I made? :D
The resistors are soldered to my 2 meters long self-made extension cable between my amplifier and my headphones. This is very safe and one can even have matched cables for different headphones!

Without the resistors the frequecy response of Sennheiser HD598 driven with 300 ohms output impedance in unlistenable because of the huge bass boost around 100 Hz were the impedance rises to ~250 ohms if I remember right.

Making this important impedance modification removes the real need of a separate headphone amplifier in my opinion because if the sound is not good enough for your headphones, it is not good enough for your loudspeakers either (it's the same damn amp!) and upgrading your amplifier is called for.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Karl Henning

 Quote from: 71 dB on Today at 03:42:29 PM
The idea was to get people's attention because what I wrote is
important
Don't trouble with the red font. We'll be the judge of what's important; we're freethinkers, after all.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

DavidW

Quote from: Todd on February 17, 2012, 10:10:54 AM
This ain't nothin' compared to headphone sites, though.

OMG yes!! :o  Those people are crazy!

nesf

#393
Quote from: 71 dB on February 17, 2012, 10:42:29 AM
The idea was to get people's attention because what I wrote is important. The headphone socket impedance of typical loudspeaker amplifiers is far too high for many headphones with more curvy impedance behavior. Since the amplifier manufacturers are reluctant to address this problem, self-made source impedance reduction is needed! Luckily it is relatively easy and extremely cheap to do. The trickiest part is to calculate optimal resistor values.
The resistors are soldered to my 2 meters long self-made extension cable between my amplifier and my headphones. This is very safe and one can even have matched cables for different headphones!

Without the resistors the frequecy response of Sennheiser HD598 driven with 300 ohms output impedance in unlistenable because of the huge bass boost around 100 Hz were the impedance rises to ~250 ohms if I remember right.

Making this important impedance modification removes the real need of a separate headphone amplifier in my opinion because if the sound is not good enough for your headphones, it is not good enough for your loudspeakers either (it's the same damn amp!) and upgrading your amplifier is called for.

I just used a cheap external DAC/amp from Fiio. Works grand. No need even for this with my Macbook Pro, it has more than enough amplification in the headphone out to achieve "live" volume levels. The amp needs of speakers will be very different to that of headphones though, the latter draw far more power, so it's not unreasonable to have specialist amps here since really a headphone amp doesn't need to be expensive to do its job (i.e. increase the volume to the level you want). There's also the danger of blowing your headphones drivers if you get your maths wrong and put too much power down the line to them using the speaker out from a hifi amp. There's a reason they put a big ol' resistor in the headphone out socket after all.
My favourite words in classical: "Molto vivace"

Yes, I'm shallow.

DavidW

Quote from: 71 dB on February 17, 2012, 10:42:29 AM
Without the resistors the frequecy response of Sennheiser HD598 driven with 300 ohms output impedance in unlistenable because of the huge bass boost around 100 Hz were the impedance rises to ~250 ohms if I remember right.

I know, my avr has a high output impedance too, and my headphone amp has a very low impedance.  I totally followed and agree with you, I just saw the humor in the situation. :)

nesf

Quote from: DavidW on February 17, 2012, 09:53:52 AM
Normal person: I plugin my headphones and use them, they sound great.
Gmg poster: I solder resistors to the op-amp to produce a flat frequency response.  Would you like to see some graphs of the voltage output vs frequency that I made? :D

Normal person: What do you mean the stereo that came with my car isn't hifi?

Normal person: Apple earbuds sound great, sure they were designed especially for the iPod weren't they!

Etc.


I'm not mocking really. The normal person has more money in their wallet than I because of this.
My favourite words in classical: "Molto vivace"

Yes, I'm shallow.

jlaurson

Quote from: nesf on February 17, 2012, 12:40:59 PM
Normal person: What do you mean the stereo that came with my car isn't hifi?
Normal person: Apple earbuds sound great, sure they were designed especially for the iPod weren't they!
Etc.
I'm not mocking really. The normal person has more money in their wallet than I because of this.

When I am at my wife-to-be's, I sometimes just turn the music off because the speaker of that slightly-more-sightly-than-a-boom-box system is so dismal, one might as well not listen to music.

As ridiculous as the high falutin' extremes in the HiFi world, it's just as sad at what a low quality so many "normal" level people consume music.

71 dB

Quote from: nesf on February 17, 2012, 12:36:07 PM
I just used a cheap external DAC/amp from Fiio. Works grand. No need even for this with my Macbook Pro, it has more than enough amplification in the headphone out to achieve "live" volume levels.

That's good.  ;)

Quote from: nesf on February 17, 2012, 12:36:07 PMThe amp needs of speakers will be very different to that of headphones though, the latter draw far more power, so it's not unreasonable to have specialist amps here since really a headphone amp doesn't need to be expensive to do its job (i.e. increase the volume to the level you want). There's also the danger of blowing your headphones drivers if you get your maths wrong and put too much power down the line to them using the speaker out from a hifi amp. There's a reason they put a big ol' resistor in the headphone out socket after all.

Yes, they put big resistors (~300 ohms) in the headphone socket for protection (power reduction) but that's the damn problem! Many headphones need low output impedance for flat frequency responce. The resistors I soldered to my extension cable give extra protection because most of the power that comes out of the headphone socket goes to the resistors. Talking about math, I don't make mistakes on trivial calculations like these. I don't do things that are too difficult for me.

Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

71 dB

Quote from: jlaurson on February 17, 2012, 02:23:51 PM
As ridiculous as the high falutin' extremes in the HiFi world, it's just as sad at what a low quality so many "normal" level people consume music.

True. 95 % of people listen to abysmal sound that is so bad that the equivalent on TV picture quality would be the black and white sets from 50's. Significantly better sound is easy to achieve with todays technology but people are happy with the cheapest possible crap.  ???
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

nesf

Quote from: 71 dB on February 17, 2012, 02:26:55 PM
Yes, they put big resistors (~300 ohms) in the headphone socket for protection (power reduction) but that's the damn problem! Many headphones need low output impedance for flat frequency responce. The resistors I soldered to my extension cable give extra protection because most of the power that comes out of the headphone socket goes to the resistors. Talking about math, I don't make mistakes on trivial calculations like these. I don't do things that are too difficult for me.

I wasn't saying you'd make the mistake but others might. Especially if they're unsure of how much power the amp is putting out in the first place. The problem is if you do mess up in the wrong direction you won't know about it until a driver goes *pop*. That'd make me nervous and get me to take out an old pair of cheap headphones for testing purposes! :D

No argument about high resistance being a problem! Even the 5 Ohm out on the Fiio E10 causes problems with some headphones, never mind a resistor 60 times that resistance!
My favourite words in classical: "Molto vivace"

Yes, I'm shallow.