Headphones

Started by Bonehelm, June 10, 2007, 02:50:21 PM

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chadfeldheimer

Quote from: 71 dB on June 06, 2015, 12:08:16 PM
You are welcome.  :)

As long as there is enough power to waste this doesn't matter. Did you know that typical hifi loudspeakers use only 0.1 % of the power to produce sound and the rest 99.9 % goes to heating the voice coils etc.?
With external resistors only 0.01% of the power are used to produce sound then  ;)

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In practise "heating resistors" is not that dramatic as you would imagine because the signal levels are rather low on "safe" listening levels. I use 0.6 W precision (1 %) resistors and I can't feel them heating up at all even if I play music insanely loud.
As I wrote I see the problems rather at the internal resistors, which would see the largest power drop.
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So it seems, at least it should be capble of driving high impedance phones well. I didn't get 100 % clarity of what your problem using HD 595 with it was, but I can say:

- Damping factor criteria is not fulfilled without 12 Ω (or smaller) parallel resistors.
- Frequency response error is 1.3 dB without paraller resistors and 0.7 dB with 12 Ω paraller resistors.
- In case you suffered from amp noise, the parallel resistors would reduce the noise by 4.9 dB
I don't know the daming factor criterium you cited. Can you give a source there?

Redarding the weaker resolution with my old phones: In my opinion there are only two factors that could weaken the clarity - noise and nonlinearities. Since I have no idea where the nonlinearities would come  from, I would tip noise.
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Perhaps my suggestion sounds too cheap and not stylish or cool enough to you? This is not snakeoil. This is rational engineering based on scientific facts. That's why it works.
It has nothing to do with cheapness or stylishness, but I really meaned what I wrote. I don't like the technique of reducing the amp noise by increasing the voltage drop on the output resistors. Also I would prefer a solution that gives me the full SNR my amplifier provides. Maybe that would also be possible with a very small parallel resistor, but then I do see the problem of stressing output-amp and resistors. Maybe it also is a matter of taste, as always. Even in engineering descisions are not always fully determined by the facts, are they?

71 dB

Quote from: merlin on June 06, 2015, 03:39:43 PM
Thanks for the links, but building one of those is far beyond my skills. :-[

It's not actually that hard if you follows someones design. Using a soldering iron is the hardest part.

Quote from: merlin on June 06, 2015, 03:39:43 PMI have been using a very old Sony MDR-V6, and am about to replace it with a Fostex TH900.
Fostex TH900 has low impedance (25 Ω @1000 Hz), but this should not cause problems to you.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

71 dB

Quote from: chadfeldheimer on June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 PM
With external resistors only 0.01% of the power are used to produce sound then  ;)
I was talking about loudspeakers.  ;)

Quote from: chadfeldheimer on June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 PMAs I wrote I see the problems rather at the internal resistors, which would see the largest power drop.
The internal resistors should be ok unless their are the weakest in the history of humankind. A $600 audio device is protected against short circuits and that's much worse than what I am proposing.

You are right that if the paraller resistor was very small, say 1 Ω, the power requirements would increase too much. But I am not suggesting that even if that would provide excellent damping factor.

Quote from: chadfeldheimer on June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 PMI don't know the daming factor criterium you cited. Can you give a source there?
Damping factor criteria here is simply that the output impedance should be 1/8 of the impedance of the phones or less. Your 11.1 Ω amp can drive phones with impedance about 90 Ω or more fulfilling this criteria.

Technically the phones store acoustical and mechanical energy and when this energy is released it is transformed into electrical error current in the voice coil. The larger the output impedance, the bigger error voltage is formed over the output resistors meaning the voltage over the phones is not an exact portion (say 80%) of the amp voltage. This means distortion. The sound is not accurate or clean. It's not high fidelity.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.fi/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

Quote from: chadfeldheimer on June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 PMRedarding the weaker resolution with my old phones: In my opinion there are only two factors that could weaken the clarity - noise and nonlinearities. Since I have no idea where the nonlinearities would come  from, I would tip noise.It has nothing to do with cheapness or stylishness, but I really meaned what I wrote. I don't like the technique of reducing the amp noise by increasing the voltage drop on the output resistors. Also I would prefer a solution that gives me the full SNR my amplifier provides. Maybe that would also be possible with a very small parallel resistor, but then I do see the problem of stressing output-amp and resistors. Maybe it also is a matter of taste, as always. Even in engineering descisions are not always fully determined by the facts, are they?

Lack of resolution or clarity can be as simple as rolled off treble. Noise as I understand it technically is noise, what you hear between FM radio stations for example. You hear it when the music is quit and you don't hear it when loud music masks it. I doubt that's the case?

Too low damping factor causes distortion and "fits" your words about resolution and clarity.

My solution doesn't suppress the SNR, it only transfers it. When both signal and noise is lowered the same amount, SNR stays the same.

I don't recommend very small parallel resistors in your case (see above).

Engineers tend to go with the facts. If not, that's bad engineering.

Since I can't remove your skeptisism conserning my insight of parallel resisitors, I have another solution to you, but it costs serious money: Buy a low output impedance (2 Ω or less) headphone amp with crossfeed and you'll get stunning sound out of HD595 (or any other quality phones). Here is one suggestion: http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

chadfeldheimer

Ok - thanks again for the detailed answer. Perhaps we should leave it at that. In the end I already bought the new phones and am still quite happy with them. However it was an interesting discussion.

71 dB

Quote from: chadfeldheimer on June 07, 2015, 02:48:20 AM
Ok - thanks again for the detailed answer. Perhaps we should leave it at that. In the end I already bought the new phones and am still quite happy with them. However it was an interesting discussion.

You are welcome. It's good you are happy now. I wanted to tell how sometimes a $1 fix can save you from spending a lot of hard earned money. In headphone listening there's some weird "historical" quirks. One is the mishmash with the impedances. Another is the lack of crossfeed in most systems. Considering how much people spend money on their phones and amps and the technical simplicity of correcting these imperfections the situation is crazy in my opinion.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

merlin

Wondering about the advantages (and disadvantages) of balanced vs. unbalanced headphone connections to my BHA-1 amp.  It seems that almost all higher-quality ones come with a 1/4" phono plug rather than an xlr, so is it worth modding the stock cable, or even replacing it?

Mirror Image

Quote from: Todd on March 11, 2015, 08:32:53 AM



Every year to year-and-half I end up buying new mid-price headphones for use at work.  This time I decided to swap out Beyerdynamic DT-1350s for Audio Technica ATH AD900x cans.  Prior to the DT 1350s, I used the ATH AD700.  The AD900x is step up.  The high are cleaner and more extended, and the bass is improved, though still on the light side.  Piano sound is definitely better.  The AD900x is also the most comfortable pair of headphones I've ever encountered, bettering the AD700 with a superior clamping mechanism.  The sensitivity is given as 100 dB/mW, and the impedance is 38 Ohms, so they are easy to drive.  When I A/Bd them with my Beyer T1s, themselves super-sensitive at 102 dB/mW but rated at 600 Ohms, the AD900xs were noticeably louder at every setting, as expected.  I should get a good year out of these before getting bored and moving on.

Are you still enjoying these Audio-Technica headphones, Todd? I bought a pair last night for $154 (w/ free shipping), which seemed like a good deal. I also went ahead and bought the Philips Fidelio X2 a few weeks ago, but I haven't really listened to them much as I'm getting so much enjoyment out of the super comfortable and great sound of the Philips SHP9500s. I thought my Sennheiser 598s were comfortable, these Philips don't even feel like you've got anything on your head. I felt similar with the Audio-Technica AD500x which my dad owns. I was enjoying them so much that he asked me to have them back! ;)

Moonfish

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2015, 06:39:28 AM
Are you still enjoying these Audio-Technica headphones, Todd? I bought a pair last night for $154 (w/ free shipping), which seemed like a good deal. I also went ahead and bought the Philips Fidelio X2 a few weeks ago, but I haven't really listened to them much as I'm getting so much enjoyment out of the super comfortable and great sound of the Philips SHP9500s. I thought my Sennheiser 598s were comfortable, these Philips don't even feel like you've got anything on your head. I felt similar with the Audio-Technica AD500x which my dad owns. I was enjoying them so much that he asked me to have them back! ;)

Out of curiosity: why so many pairs? The search for the Holy Grail of headphones?
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Ken B

Quote from: Moonfish on June 18, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
Out of curiosity: why so many pairs?
You ask John this? John? I'm surprised he isn't posting about his latest favorite speaker cable.



:P :laugh:

Moonfish

Quote from: Ken B on June 18, 2015, 12:35:25 PM
You ask John this? John? I'm surprised he isn't posting about his latest favorite speaker cable.



:P :laugh:

Heh! Well, at least he is not buying a new amplifier every month.   ;)
"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

Todd

Quote from: Mirror Image on June 18, 2015, 06:39:28 AMAre you still enjoying these Audio-Technica headphones, Todd?



Yes.  They are easy to wear for hours at a time, and the only sonic shortcoming is in low bass, and then really only when I listen to organ music, which I rarely do through headphones.  They are great for a work setting where one can wear giant headphones.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Holden

Quote from: Ken B on June 18, 2015, 12:35:25 PM
You ask John this? John? I'm surprised he isn't posting about his latest favorite speaker cable.



:P :laugh:

Johns spiritual home

www.headfi.org
Cheers

Holden

Mirror Image

Quote from: Moonfish on June 18, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
Out of curiosity: why so many pairs? The search for the Holy Grail of headphones?

Good question, Peter. About 99.9% of my listening is through headphones. Each headphone I own sounds different. Some are more geared towards classical/jazz while others have a better sound for rock music. I suppose I'm trying to find 'the headphone' that handles all of the genres of music I like. Over the last few years, I've been trying to find a headphone that's more neutral and offers uncolored sound quality. So far, I've yet to find one that delivers all levels, but I'm finding the Philips SHP9500s more and more what I'm looking (or listening in this case) for. You think I have a lot of headphones, you should see my dad's collection. ;) ;D

Mirror Image

Quote from: Ken B on June 18, 2015, 12:35:25 PM
You ask John this? John? I'm surprised he isn't posting about his latest favorite speaker cable.



:P :laugh:

:P

Mirror Image

Quote from: Todd on June 18, 2015, 02:00:37 PM


Yes.  They are easy to wear for hours at a time, and the only sonic shortcoming is in low bass, and then really only when I listen to organ music, which I rarely do through headphones.  They are great for a work setting where one can wear giant headphones.

Pretty much the same experience I've had when I borrowed my dad's AD500xs. Super comfortable with minimal clamping force. I remember them having a nice, wide soundstage. Ideal for classical music.


Moonfish

"Every time you spend money you are casting a vote for the kind of world you want...."
Anna Lappé

ZauberdrachenNr.7

Interesting story about Audeze headphones on CNN; previously on this thread Todd described their tone as being "dark." 

http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2015/07/22/audeze-headphones.cnnmoney/?Sr=recirc072315headphones0930video

Holden

Just acquired a pair of these - Flare Audio R2A



I got these from someone who bought them as part of a kickstart campaign so I got them at a very good price. All I can say is WOW! These are the best phones for listening to classical music I have ever heard. The natural way they reproduce instrument timbre and the air they give around individual instruments (especially in chamber music) is just unbelievable. They go deep too. I replayed a piece of organ music with a lot of work with 32 ft pipes and they not only produced the sound you hear the pitch of the notes so clearly.

I won't be looking for new phones for a long while after hearing these.

Here's a review: What this guy hears is basically what I am hearing.

http://headfonics.com/2015/05/the-r2a-and-r2pro-iems-by-flare-audio/
Cheers

Holden

stingo

Headphone amps, esp for portable headphones - worth it?