Best side-drum solo in Nielsen's 5th symphony

[alkan]

Another manic snare-drummer is Tom Nybe on the recording with Michael Schonwandt with the Danish NRSO on dacapo (I think that this has just been issued on Naxos).

Ah, thanks Vandermolar ..... this sounds like exactly what I am looking for whilst I await a reissue of the Horenstein version.

The Cambridge concert sounds great .... additional drama in the first movement as the drummer breaks down and throws his sticks away 

[The new erato]

Ah, thanks Vandermolar ..... this sounds like exactly what I am looking for whilst I await a reissue of the Horenstein version.

One can always hope I guess, but this doesn't seem to be the kind of stuff that's high on the reissues ladder. Whio owms this catalogu now? Am I right in seeming to remember that it once was on the Unicorn-Kanchana label?

[PerfectWagnerite]

In the Fourth's opening, the sleigh-bell player is directed to keep the tempo moderately fast while the rest of the orchestra slows down.  And in the Seventh's first movement and a couple of times in the Eighth, he gives the violin section an accelerando and fermata while the rest of the orchestra plays in tempo. 

I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.

I can't find the score of the 1st, 2nd or 7th right now but I think I know what you are referring to. But if I remember correctly Mahler gave very detailed instructions as to the different tempi he wants from the different sections, not just "ignore the conductor and do whatever you want".

[jochanaan]

I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.

No, it's right at the beginning.

I can't find the score of the 1st, 2nd or 7th right now but I think I know what you are referring to. But if I remember correctly Mahler gave very detailed instructions as to the different tempi he wants from the different sections, not just "ignore the conductor and do whatever you want".

He did.  But with some of those sections, it's almost impossible to conduct everything.  (I know; I've tried. )  You have to rely on the first-chair players to lead, at least a little.

[vandermolen]

One can always hope I guess, but this doesn't seem to be the kind of stuff that's high on the reissues ladder. Whio owms this catalogu now? Am I right in seeming to remember that it once was on the Unicorn-Kanchana label?

Regis/Alto have issued some old Unicorn recordings. I approached them recommending the Horenstein Nielsen's 5th as a candidate for reissue, but the problem is that they have already issued the complete Ole Schmidt Nielsen cycle (previously Unicorn) in their current catalogue. Still, I shall keep pestering them.

[The new erato]

Regis/Alto have issued some old Unicorn recordings. I approached them recommending the Horenstein Nielsen's 5th as a candidate for reissue, but the problem is that they have already issued the complete Ole Schmitt Nielsen cycle (previously Unicorn) in their current catalogue. Still, I shall keep pestering them.

I was aware of that, eg the VERY FINE cycle of Maconchy string quartets. But again, as you say, the Nielsen stakes are somewhat higher.

[vandermolen]

I was aware of that, eg the VERY FINE cycle of Maconchy string quartets. But again, as you say, the Nielsen stakes are somewhat higher.

Yes, that's true.  I've also tried to get them to issue David Measham's recording of Goossens Symphony No 1 (better than Hickox or Handley IMHO) - but no luck there either.

[Luke]

I checked the score of the 4th, I cannot find the part you are referring to. There is a mild slowdown when the violins first enter while the ostinato in the flute and sleigh bell is in tempo. Maybe this is what you are referring to.

No, Jo's quite right, and as he says, it's right at the beginning. It isn't very clear in the score - some instruments are given a rit whilst the sleigh bell is not, which might look like an oversight but isn't. It isn't often played this way, however. It is on Chailly's recording, and the liner notes give the whole story:

The tiny jingling ritornello with which the movement opens awakens memories of a nursery musical box, one that, in Mahler's own words, leaves us with the impression that it 'could not count to three'. He acheives this by keeping the flutes and bells in strict time, marking them ohne rit [actually, I can't see this in the score, which doesn't help make things clearer, but as the missing marking essentially means 'don't do anything different', the case is essentially unaltered] while the accompanying clarinets, as their figuration comes to an end, are marked poco rit. [that is in the score, and it is only in the clarinets, not the flute or bells - the violins, as they come in, have something else again!] The resulting 'confusion' - a typical Mahlerian innovation - sounds exactly as if the musical box has a mechanical fault or the child operating it hasn't got far with his numbers. It was only at the very end of his life that Mahler made his wishes clear about this passage and this performance incorporates his final intentions as documented by erwin stein

Re the point made earlier about Nielsen's drum solo finishing 'too early' with a couple of bars of simple roll - two convergent thoughts occur to me. One is that Nielsen imagined that a pure hard roll represented some kind of a maximum level of pure activity into which even the wildest drum solo could merge - IOW, that a roll would be the logical climax of any solo, something with which any solo could merge. Two is that it's very possible that Nielsen, living in his pre bebop, pre Keith Moon, pre Jaki Leibezeit days   could not imagine quite how much disruptive power a good drum soloist could release, to the extent that his simple roll, rather than being climactic, might come as something of a let-down.