Most complex styles of music

[CD]

IMO, music has been effected in the West by the elevation of the written score, whereas music, for me, is best thought of as an oral (or aural) tradition. 

Merely because some music has no written tradition (this fact is some proof of why it is complex, the nuances are nearly impossible to capture in written notation and the music is only learned through apprenticeship) does not mean it is not complex and does not involve highly technical aspects which can only be performed by assiduous study and training.  Of course the reverse is true as well, because music does NOT have a score does not always translate into complexity.

I stand by my earlier comments about blues and flamenco, and add the styles that Luke suggested - this music is complex, although can sound much simpler than it is to pull off.

Oh no I understand your point exactly, I was just trying to be funny, sorry. It would be difficult to try and differentiate between complexity that is constructed as opposed to complexity that is a part of the "signifiers" of a tradition that has developed over many years. It's also quite relative — Gagaku music from Japan sounds much simpler than most Western art music from Machaut's time to now, but there could be many nuances that someone immersed in the tradition would look for, and which would probably be lost on someone like me.

What's also interesting is the idea of "difficulty". For instance Mahler's music is extremely complex on the page, but easy to understand — whereas Morton Feldman's music is usually very simple, but often (for me) elusive.

[Luke]

...whereas Morton Feldman's music is usually very simple, but often (for me) elusive.

well, not really - it's highly complicated stuff, is Feldman, rhymithcally, technically, notationally, the nuances are so subtle and so precisely indicated - his music is constructed like no one else's, and looks like no one else's on the page (as Franco suggests, the score isn't the be all and end all, but at the same time it is hardly irrelevant to this discussion). Check out some of the Feldman scores in the mystery scores thread to see what I mean. Certainly it is more complex in details than Mahler is

[greg]

I definitely agree far more with your devils advocate version I'm afraid...

Me, too.
There's nothing complex, about, say, quarter-tone guitar string bends within a blues context.

[greg]

I stand by my earlier comments about blues and flamenco, and add the styles that Luke suggested - this music is complex, although can sound much simpler than it is to pull off.

I can't say anything about flamenco, but I wonder what type of blues you're talking about.
As for bluesy stuff by rock artists- sometimes they can get stuff that's a bit complex, but even the most complex blues stuff I've played is simple compared to, even, say, a Haydn Piano Sonata. The guitar part might have something a little challenging, but usually the rest of the music is just a big loop.
Maybe you're talking about older blues or something... I don't listen to that much, but haven't heard anything that sounds very complex to me. Maybe there is?... (and we're talking non-jazz related?)...

[Franco]

Me, too.
There's nothing complex, about, say, quarter-tone guitar string bends within a blues context.

I am not talking about the guitar, but the singing.  The vocal lines are very complex, unless you just gloss over the nuances and think of it reduced to its most basic elements, but if you did that and notated a melody stripped of those nuances, when someone played it back it would simply not sound like the original but a bland simplistic echo. 

"Bluesy stuff by rock artists" is nowhere as complex as the acoustic "plantation" recordings of Muddy Waters.  If you haven't heard these recordings, then you wouldn't know what I am talking about.  The Robert Johnson recordings are another example.  There are rhythmic complexities in the guitar playing that no one could duplicate by trying to notate them and have someone like John Williams attempt to recreate the sound.

But, like I said earlier, this is purely my opinion and I am not trying to prosletyze.

[CD]

I agree with your point, but I am not so sure that gagaku (coincidentally,a written tradition) illustrates it. I have played this music for 30 years (ryuteki and komabue), and although it is rich with nuance that you get to know better only with familiarity (the patterns, some of the articulation that is context dependent), it has never seemed complex, rich certainly, but not complex.

Are there any recordings that you recommend? I'm interested!

[arkiv]

This an example of tala adi. There are more complex talas in this same style.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jxYP0uqHh4o

[Guido]

I am not talking about the guitar, but the singing.  The vocal lines are very complex, unless you just gloss over the nuances and think of it reduced to its most basic elements, but if you did that and notated a melody stripped of those nuances, when someone played it back it would simply not sound like the original but a bland simplistic echo. 

I think you're seriously underestimating the complexity of Western classical music. Just because there's a score, doesn't mean that that represents everything a performer must do. Think about putting all the parameters into a computer programme like Sibelius - the music that comes out is nothing like a real performance - Rubato, attack, precise timings of crescendos, tone colour, precise tuning of intervals, and most of all vibrato (its width and speed) are all absolutey vital for western classical music, but none are notated (traditionally at least) - and indeed would look ridiculously complicated on the page if they were. Even dynamics have an infinite subtlety and range within what is written on the page.

Merely because some music has no written tradition (this fact is some proof of why it is complex, the nuances are nearly impossible to capture in written notation and the music is only learned through apprenticeship) does not mean it is not complex and does not involve highly technical aspects which can only be performed by assiduous study and training.

The western musical notation is designed to notate Western classical music, so I don't think it means that other music is complicated just because you can't notate it using another system. How would you notate Rachmaninov's Piano concerto no.2 using Raga notation?

[Franco]

I think you're seriously underestimating the complexity of Western classical music. Just because there's a score, doesn't mean that that represents everything a performer must do. Think about putting all the parameters into a computer programme like Sibelius - the music that comes out is nothing like a real performance - Rubato, attack, precise timings of crescendos, tone colour, precise tuning of intervals, and most of all vibrato (its width and speed) are all absolutey vital for western classical music, but none are notated (traditionally at least) - and indeed would look ridiculously complicated on the page if they were. Even dynamics have an infinite subtlety and range within what is written on the page.

The western musical notation is designed to notate Western classical music, so I don't think it means that other music is complicated just because you can't notate it using another system. How would you notate Rachmaninov's Piano concerto no.2 using Raga notation?

I agree with most of what you say, but notating a Rachmaninoff Piano concerto is vastly more successful than notating a Delta blues performance (I am using Delta blues as merely one example of music which is outside the Western classical music context and developed outside of a written traditon).  If you think I am underestimating the complexity of Western classical music (I'm not, I think it is complex too, but for different reasons), then I know you are underestimating the complexity of Delta blues music.

It is no coincidence that musicians of the Delta chose to use the slide on the guitar instead of fingering the notes using the frets, because they needed the microtones.  This implies a level of complexity that is hard to capture in notation.  Add to this melodic context the nuances of rhythm and meter, which some ignorant people hear as "mistakes" and you end up with a very complex style of music that is impossible for someone to reproduce unless they have studied this music from a master.  You certainly could not duplicate it by reading even the most detailed score, since as you have said, even diatonic Western classical music is not fully captured in a score, and for all those same reasons Delta blues is even harder to capture in a written score.

Also, if you reread my posts you will see that I already stated that having a score is not definitive of complexity or lack of it, and vice versa.  If the musical tradition grew up without a written tradition that does not necessarily mean that the music is complex, but it usually will mean that it will be hard to notate.  Being hard to notate does mean that there are elements foreign to the Western classical music tradition, and this can make the music more complex than it appears on the surface since many times those differences seem to the ignorant as defects.

Look, I don't have an axe to grind, i.e. I am not trying to show that Delta blues is superior to Rachmaninoff, etc. - the topic was about complex music and I gave my opinion and the reasons why I thought so.  I sure don't want to compare classical music to blues with the intention of putting one above the other in quality or meaning.  I love both and appreciate them both for difference reasons - and put forward this opinion because no one else had mentioned it.

Music is not a zero sum game.

[zorzynek]

I'd say Indian classical music is pretty complicated. So are maqams.

[jowcol]

I'd say Indian classical music is pretty complicated. So are maqams.

Rhythmically, I'd agree.  Harmonically, Indian classical  it's about a simple as you can get. (Unless you want to get into natural vs equal tempered tuning...)  I would say for me that a good interpretation of a Raga and Tala is definitely a "very deep, rich, multi-faceted creation".

I like the post earlier on how the "simple" can be perceived as complex, while some of Bach's multi voice fugues can seem very natural and accessible.


Too bad the Rachmaninoff never had the chance to play with a gutbucket blues band.

[RJR]

Taqsim from the Middle East.

[snyprrr]

I can't believe I never Ranted on this Thread.