Practice Tips?

[greg]

Anyone familiar with playing the same thing a thousand times and having everything memorized and then making mistakes you've never made before, and have no idea how it happened?

I'm sure some has advice regarding this, maybe... 

Well, right now, I've decided to learn the Adagio of the Mahler 9th for the piano (well, not really decided, but more like impulsively forced to out of a need to understand how it works). It's not a transcription- I'm just going through the score and playing what I can and memorizing it, which means I typically leave out bass notes, etc. since I don't have 4 arms.

I've memorized the first page and have played through it without a mistake, but have noticed that it's easy to accidentally mess something up for no reason, like you've never done before.

Is it a matter of planning exact fingering and practicing every detail to death until you can practically picture the whole event in your head?

[secondwind]

I wish I could tell you how to avoid those inexplicable mistakes, but sadly I can't.  But if it is true that misery loves company, you've got some.  I have certainly had the experience many times of "playing the same thing a thousand times and having everything memorized and then making mistakes you've never made before, and have no idea how it happened."  It is especially sad when this happens during a performance!

In my efforts to avoid this, yes, I plan fingerings and practice every detail to death.  The more motions become automatic, and the fewer decisions and choices I have to make when playing, the more likely I am to play it the way I have practiced it.  But then, while playing, and especially while performing, I need to achieve a certain state of mind--focused but relaxed, aware of extraneous sounds or motions, but not disturbed by them, and above all focused on the music itself (not on myself, or the person coughing in the front row, or the mistake I made three measures ago. . . )  When I am in this state of mind, I am most likely to play well.  If I am tense, or unfocused, or upset in any way, I am likely to make mistakes I never dreamed of in practice sessions!

Good luck.  I hope you hear from some more experienced performers about how they deal with this. . . I'd like to know, too!

[greg]

That's actually helpful, thanks.
So, it sounds to me like memorizing every last detail and fingering + repetition + correct state of mind is the best thing to do.
I've also noticed that practicing the same thing over and over again without a break can be stressful and put you in a bad state of mind, no matter how well you've practiced and memorized it.

[secondwind]

I've also noticed that practicing the same thing over and over again without a break can be stressful and put you in a bad state of mind, no matter how well you've practiced and memorized it.

Well, we've all got a practice limit.  I usually recognize mine in the rear-view mirror, after I've passed it and am wondering why nothing is working right anymore. 

[jochanaan]

The day of and the day before a major performance, I never practice much.  In fact, I discovered decades ago that practicing the oboe the day of a big concert or recital does more harm than good; it only tires me out! And if I do practice, I keep it very low-key, focusing on technique and those passages I still have trouble playing.  After this, the performance usually takes off, and any mistakes will be minor and "lost" in the musical flow.

Can you think ahead while playing?  That is, before you actually play a certain measure, you've looked at the music, considered your fingerings etc., so that you're not surprised when it comes?  And then when you're actually playing the measure, you're looking ahead to the next one.  It's sort of like looking down the road while walking instead of staring at your feet.  That reduces a lot of these unanticipated mistakes.

But in my experience, it's almost impossible to get rid of them all.  Just when you think you've got a piece finger-perfect, something will slip! All you can do then is to go on and forget them.  Whip yourself AFTER the gig.

Oh, and my final tip:

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.
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KEEP BREATHING!

[secondwind]

Oh, and my final tip:

.
.
.

KEEP BREATHING!

Essential for a wind player, obviously, but also useful for string and piano players.  I remember watching YoYo Ma on some televised program coaching a young cellist and saying something like "breathe like a singer. . . pause to breathe here, and inhale. . ." Somehow, even for string players and pianists, I think it puts the body in synch with the phrasing of the music to breathe musically.   Also, the brain doesn't function well when it is starved for oxygen. . . 

[greg]

The day of and the day before a major performance, I never practice much.  In fact, I discovered decades ago that practicing the oboe the day of a big concert or recital does more harm than good; it only tires me out! And if I do practice, I keep it very low-key, focusing on technique and those passages I still have trouble playing.  After this, the performance usually takes off, and any mistakes will be minor and "lost" in the musical flow.

Can you think ahead while playing?  That is, before you actually play a certain measure, you've looked at the music, considered your fingerings etc., so that you're not surprised when it comes?  And then when you're actually playing the measure, you're looking ahead to the next one.  It's sort of like looking down the road while walking instead of staring at your feet.  That reduces a lot of these unanticipated mistakes.

But in my experience, it's almost impossible to get rid of them all.  Just when you think you've got a piece finger-perfect, something will slip! All you can do then is to go on and forget them.  Whip yourself AFTER the gig.

Oh, and my final tip:

.
.
.

KEEP BREATHING!

Excellent advice! (and I love the road analogy)

[zamyrabyrd]

Excellent advice! (and I love the road analogy)

I agree too with all of the above. One thing I found that there are diminishing returns with practicing something in a mechanical manner over the limit of one's concentration.  Gyorgy Sandor wrote in his excellent book "On Piano Playing" that so much practice is wasted, that is, in mechanical, mindless playing. So I think stopping and taking breaks when the mind is tired can be very useful.

ZB

[mikkeljs]

I've memorized the first page and have played through it without a mistake, but have noticed that it's easy to accidentally mess something up for no reason, like you've never done before.

Have you considered, that just because you study by repeating something untill you get the right notes, it doesn´t mean that you actually have the control, when it is right. Try to go through it, and let your fingers really observe, what they are doing (when they do it right.)

I also got more conscious, that one reason why it can take long time for me to study pieces is, that the fingers has to be placed (either physically or mentally) rightly before one can know, what to focus on, which might seem simple. But sometimes  I start focussing just a bit too early,  because it is easy to imagine something slightly different, and then it feels like you already have the focus. 

[greg]

Have you considered, that just because you study by repeating something untill you get the right notes, it doesn´t mean that you actually have the control, when it is right.

Yeah, I think this is what Jochanaan is referring to when he is saying you need to be able to picture what you are about to play before you even play it- otherwise, you don't have control of what you are playing and are unprepared.
I actually just noticed that after he said that and hadn't even thought of it before- when I do play things right, I can picture the chord or whatever I have to play in the future and know the fingering through correct, precise practice.

I agree too with all of the above. One thing I found that there are diminishing returns with practicing something in a mechanical manner over the limit of one's concentration.  Gyorgy Sandor wrote in his excellent book "On Piano Playing" that so much practice is wasted, that is, in mechanical, mindless playing. So I think stopping and taking breaks when the mind is tired can be very useful.

ZB

Oh yeah, there's truth to that.

Actually, this isn't music, but I think there is a similarity here- last week I was playing Halo in class with everyone (since there was a sub and they have no idea what's going on). I basically suck at the game- usually I might place 3rd or so from last place.

However,  I realized that the way I was playing really was mechanical and mindless and the result of poor decision making. I never really analyzed what I was doing- for example, while in a gunfight, I might even make the horrible decision of trying to jump into a vehicle and try to run them over- the result being that I obviously would get shot to death in the process. Now, if I actually use my mind, I'll go hide somewhere if I don't have a good enough weapon and wait for my guy to heal, find a good weapon, and start shooting only when it is a good idea to. I started thinking this way during the last game of the day and ended up placing 2nd... though really, it was mentally exhausting thinking so much. 

[mikkeljs]

I also noticed that studying works of Stockhausen forces you to practice correct, because it is simply impossible to get through 3 notes without focus and release of the hand. Could be very very interesting to let beginners play such things.

[greg]

I also noticed that studying works of Stockhausen forces you to practice correct, because it is simply impossible to get through 3 notes without focus and release of the hand. Could be very very interesting to let beginners play such things.

Are you still practicing Sorabji? How would you even maintain focus for stuff that long? 

[mikkeljs]

Are you still practicing Sorabji? How would you even maintain focus for stuff that long? 

The Sorabji will wait half a year yet, untill I finish my study as a pianist, because I want to concentrate on something traditional and "healthy" and learn as much as possible. I think the main problem with Sorabji is the lenght of the pieces.  By the way, if you ever compose something like 100 times as complex as Stockhausens hardest piano pieces, and if it has a short duration, I would love to play it! Besides my own piano concerto, I can´t think of anything else that difficult. One place I have 13 staffs in the piano part, each of them full of notes, and everything is pianissimo, and still it is perfectly possible to play it. I really should record it someday! 

[greg]

The Sorabji will wait half a year yet, untill I finish my study as a pianist, because I want to concentrate on something traditional and "healthy" and learn as much as possible. I think the main problem with Sorabji is the lenght of the pieces.  By the way, if you ever compose something like 100 times as complex as Stockhausens hardest piano pieces, and if it has a short duration, I would love to play it! Besides my own piano concerto, I can´t think of anything else that difficult. One place I have 13 staffs in the piano part, each of them full of notes, and everything is pianissimo, and still it is perfectly possible to play it. I really should record it someday!

Um... wow... 13 staves? Do you have a picture? (could you do a screenshot, at least?) Man, I'd love to see that... 

[mikkeljs]

Um... wow... 13 staves? Do you have a picture? (could you do a screenshot, at least?) Man, I'd love to see that... 

Not yet. I would love to post it, maybe next week, when I come home to my parrents and their scanner.

[jochanaan]

Yeah, I think this is what Jochanaan is referring to when he is saying you need to be able to picture what you are about to play before you even play it- otherwise, you don't have control of what you are playing and are unprepared.
I actually just noticed that after he said that and hadn't even thought of it before- when I do play things right, I can picture the chord or whatever I have to play in the future and know the fingering through correct, precise practice.

What I referred to was part of that.  More in a bit...

... though really, it was mentally exhausting thinking so much. 

Perfect control like Mikkel's talking about requires not just mechanical perfection, but a sensitivity to musical phrasings, overall shape, emotional content, spiritual and bodily awareness, and a total moment-by-moment commitment to the music.  Playing all the notes is one element in the whole--a very important element, yes, but only one.  It's all too possible to play a piece note-perfectly and still not make music.  But when your whole being is involved, body, mind and heart--that's real music-making.

When practicing, take frequent breaks from sheer technique to think a little about how the music should sound and feel.  This is not just intellectual activity, but an awareness centered below conscious thought.  Let yourself feel the wonder and fascination you felt when you first discovered that particular composition.  This will not only help you play more musically, it will keep you from getting burned out on the mechanicals.

[greg]

Oh yeah, that's all great advice. It's all too possible to learn how to play something, but to play it without passion. That's why I think it helps to like the music you're playing in the first place. 

[jochanaan]

...That's why I think it helps to like the music you're playing in the first place. 

That does help.

[mikkeljs]

Now I forgot to bring the score to my piano concerto when I went to my parrents.  But I can scan it in the end of december.

I also came to another really good practice tip that is relevant almost every day! Whenever you feel unsatisfied with a phrase or something and you don´t know why, already having a clear imagination of the music, remember that phrasing unsatisfaction influences the entire phrase, so that one should always concentrate on the very first note or the space before that note, making sure it gets the right impulse, then you will definitely have the right order of problem solving.