Mozart's K457 and K475

[Botafogo]

Hello to everyone.

Who knows the exact story about these works? The Fantasy in c minor (K475) and the Sonata in c minor (K457) share the same key and are sometimes (usually) performed together, under the title "Fantaisie et Sonate en ut mineur pour le Pianoforte". The fact is that I've listened to performances where improvisation seemed to prevail, and only the Fantasy and a longer version of the first movement of the Sonata (Allegro) were played (and the following Adagio and Molto Allegro omitted).

What's the truth? Are pianists free to perform the work according to their wishes?

Kindest regards.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, of course everyone can do what they want (doesn't mean it's right).

Mozart composed the sonata (457) in October 1784 for one of his students (Therese de Trattner). He composed the Fantasia in May, 1785 also for her. He published them both together in December, 1785. So they were actually quite separate works. IIRC, he told her that the Fantasy would make a useful introduction for the sonata when she played them in public. So I would say that is the way to do it if one follows the wishes and conception of the composer.

[Botafogo]

Thanks for the explanation.

[karlhenning]

Well, of course everyone can do what they want (doesn't mean it's right).

Mozart composed the sonata (457) in October 1784 for one of his students (Therese de Trattner). He composed the Fantasia in May, 1785 also for her. He published them both together in December, 1785. So they were actually quite separate works. IIRC, he told her that the Fantasy would make a useful introduction for the sonata when she played them in public. So I would say that is the way to do it if one follows the wishes and conception of the composer.

Now, does their having been published together mean they should be performed as a unit, or (as for instance the 'Haydn' quartets) not?

[Gurn Blanston]

Now, does their having been published together mean they should be performed as a unit, or (as for instance the 'Haydn' quartets) not?

I don't see anything that says so, Karl. Mozart only wrote the Fantasia like 6 months later, and then he only suggested that it would make a nice introduction in concert for the sonata. So that seems pretty open to me. I personally enjoy them as a unit and have one version (Brautigam) set up to play that way.

[karlhenning]

Thanks, Gurn!

[Mandryka]

Most of the time K475 as a prelude to K457 doesn't work for me, but recently I was playing Virsaladze's record of the two pieces and I was really impressed by the way she managed the transition from the Fantasie to the sonata, so much so that I came to this website to ask about how the marriage between the two pieces was started. And then I found this little thread.

I think Virsaladze's record, which contains the Mozart and a wonderful Prokofiev 8, is just outstanding.

[lescamil]

Quite an old thread, but I've performed the Sonata on its own without the Fantasy, and I thought it worked out great. I have never liked pairing the two together, and I probably never will. It's just one of those odd, arbitrary practices that has lingered through the years just because Mozart published the pieces together.

[Gurn Blanston]

Quite an old thread, but I've performed the Sonata on its own without the Fantasy, and I thought it worked out great. I have never liked pairing the two together, and I probably never will. It's just one of those odd, arbitrary practices that has lingered through the years just because Mozart published the pieces together.

It isn't arbitrary. When Mozart sent it to the lady (his student, Madame Thérèse de Trattner.) that he wrote them for, he told her that she should use the Fantasia as a prelude to the sonata in the performance that she was preparing for. He, himself, performed both works both alone and together, so he wasn't adding it in as a mandatory movement, but he certainly presented the possibility. If you don't like them coupled together, the door is open to do it as you are pleased. But don't think it is arbitrary or random chance that they so often DO go together, since they were intended to fit well, and do.

[lescamil]

It isn't arbitrary. When Mozart sent it to the lady (his student, Madame Thérèse de Trattner.) that he wrote them for, he told her that she should use the Fantasia as a prelude to the sonata in the performance that she was preparing for. He, himself, performed both works both alone and together, so he wasn't adding it in as a mandatory movement, but he certainly presented the possibility. If you don't like them coupled together, the door is open to do it as you are pleased. But don't think it is arbitrary or random chance that they so often DO go together, since they were intended to fit well, and do.

Interesting, did not know that. Still, I'll continue performing the sonata alone, haha. Also, I can say that it is a bit of an OCD thing for me to perform a piece with a later Köchel number before a piece with an older one (yeah, I'm weird). If I were to perform both, I'd probably split them up and play them in reverse order.

[Gurn Blanston]

Interesting, did not know that. Still, I'll continue performing the sonata alone, haha. Also, I can say that it is a bit of an OCD thing for me to perform a piece with a later Köchel number before a piece with an older one (yeah, I'm weird). If I were to perform both, I'd probably split them up and play them in reverse order.

Yeah, I know. Since I always rip disks and store them away, that means my files are in the wrong order (use K #'s to start the file names). I have taken to naming that piece "K 457_475... so it fits in first with the sonata. I also have other performances of it where I play them separately. Philosophically, we aren't very far apart.

[Mandryka]

Well, of course everyone can do what they want (doesn't mean it's right).

Mozart composed the sonata (457) in October 1784 for one of his students (Therese de Trattner). He composed the Fantasia in May, 1785 also for her. He published them both together in December, 1785. So they were actually quite separate works. IIRC, he told her that the Fantasy would make a useful introduction for the sonata when she played them in public. So I would say that is the way to do it if one follows the wishes and conception of the composer.

Hello @Gurn Blanston .

Can you dig out the reference which made you say he told de Trattner that 475 is a "useful introduction" to 457?

[Mandryka]

It isn't arbitrary. When Mozart sent it to the lady (his student, Madame Thérèse de Trattner.) that he wrote them for, he told her that she should use the Fantasia as a prelude to the sonata in the performance that she was preparing for. He, himself, performed both works both alone and together, so he wasn't adding it in as a mandatory movement, but he certainly presented the possibility. If you don't like them coupled together, the door is open to do it as you are pleased. But don't think it is arbitrary or random chance that they so often DO go together, since they were intended to fit well, and do.

. . . and the reference which made you say that Mozart sometimes played them together and sometimes separately?

[ando]

Listening to this interesting discussion of the two pieces now -