Janáček (Leoš' Lair)

Started by karlhenning, June 12, 2007, 04:21:16 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Brian

Quote from: Luke on February 09, 2011, 06:34:41 AMI have to say that I cannot understand any conductor who doesn't use the original score now that it is possible to do so. What rationale could there be?

That's why I'm afraid for the new Naxos disc - Antoni Wit and the Warsaw Philharmonic are pretty much a dream pairing of conductor and orchestra/choir for the Glagolitic Mass, nearly as promising as Mackerras/CzPo, so if they record the old, truncated score I will never be able to forgive that.

Have you seen the Mackerras/CzPo DVD with the Wingfield score? MDT's shipment got lost in the mail, so I never received it.  :(

Guido

Fiddler's Child is Great Janacek, as is Makropulos, The first quartet and I would argue Osud. And all the piano works. The only major mature work of his that I don't get on with is still Broucek.

I know what you mean about The Eternal Gospel Luke - it makes all the Janacekian gestures, but something doesn't quite convince - it just lacks the searing, surging, painful passion of the rest of the mature works... It's got lots of arresting ideas, and is a pleasure to listen to, but doesn't get in my blood, pull my ears and tug at my soul like the rest.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

MishaK

Just finished listening to the Mackerras/Danish/Chandos Glagolitic Mass. It's not half that bad of a performance. I'm quite positively surprised by orchestra and chorus, having gone in with relatively low expectations. Singers are so-so. They don't spoil the performance, but they aren't stellar either. I see what you all are saying here. It certainly lacks Ancerl's intensity and isn't as driven as Mackerras' Czech PO performance. But I feel that its impact would be a lot more palpable if it wasn't for Chandos' wooly, distant sound, which eats up much of the emotional immediacy, which otherwise isn't wholly lacking. The organ solo is a snooze, though. Boulez had Paul Jacobs here in Chicago last November. That was in a completely different league altogether.

So it remains that the best recorded performance of the original (Winfield) version at the moment is the Boulez/CSO performance from 2000 on the CSO from the Archives "Tribute to Boulez" set, though even that isn't on the level of his performance here last November.

Brian

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 08:01:29 AM
So it remains that the best recorded performance of the original (Winfield) version at the moment is the Boulez/CSO performance from 2000 on the CSO from the Archives "Tribute to Boulez" set, though even that isn't on the level of his performance here last November.

In November, did they have the microphones out for a CSO Resound release?

And I'm in agreement on the Chandos sound. Still anticipating the Mackerras/CzPO DVD, which is a live broadcast of the Wingfield version.

Luke

As I say (OK, as I imply!) I haven't heard that Boulez recording, and I'll put it on my wish list. But the Hickox recording that came 'free' with the BBC music mag is not neligible, and has all the advantages and some of the disadvantages of a live recording. It's not ideal, but it has a lot of power and guts, which this piece needs more than anything. I listen to it over the Danish recording every time.

MishaK

Quote from: Brian on February 15, 2011, 08:06:49 AM
In November, did they have the microphones out for a CSO Resound release?

The mics are always there, as most concerts are at least taped for broadcasts. There was no specific plan to record it for Resound and there were no patch sessions, AFAIK. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The Shosty 5 with Chung (download only) wasn't originally planned either, I think.

Quote from: sul G (again) on February 15, 2011, 08:08:45 AM
As I say (OK, as I imply!) I haven't heard that Boulez recording, and I'll put it on my wish list. But the Hickox recording that came 'free' with the BBC music mag is not neligible, and has all the advantages and some of the disadvantages of a live recording. It's not ideal, but it has a lot of power and guts, which this piece needs more than anything. I listen to it over the Danish recording every time.

Well, since the Hickox/BBC and the 2000 Boulez/CSO are both OOP and apparently unavailable (I just checked with the CSO store - they sold out 2 years ago), we'll just have to trust each other.  ;)

Luke

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 08:39:57 AM

Well, since the Hickox/BBC and the 2000 Boulez/CSO are both OOP and apparently unavailable (I just checked with the CSO store - they sold out 2 years ago), we'll just have to trust each other.  ;)

I trust you! And having not headr the Boulez, I'm certainly not going to say the Hickox is finer. Hell, I'm not that convinced of its quality myself - it just does as a stopgap better than the Danish one, IMO. I'm listening to the Hickox at the moment, actually, prompted by posting what I did a while ago. Certainly has a lot of flair (but then that's inherent in the music, too) and damn the raggedy edges!

Opus106

One can sample Boulez's GM at this YouTube channel (search for Janacek). My own introduction to that work was through a performance with Boulez leading the Orchestra of Paris.
Regards,
Navneeth

MishaK

Quote from: Opus106 on February 15, 2011, 08:56:07 AM
One can sample Boulez's GM at this YouTube channel (search for Janacek). My own introduction to that work was through a performance with Boulez leading the Orchestra of Paris.

That's not the same Boulez performance we're talking about. That is the BBC, not the CSO. I will give it a listen though. Thanks for digging it up.

Opus106

Quote from: Mensch on February 15, 2011, 09:05:11 AM
That's not the same Boulez performance we're talking about. That is the BBC, not the CSO. I will give it a listen though. Thanks for digging it up.

I know it's not the same performance. Still, it is Boulez and the original version of the Mass. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

Guido

Does anyone know Janacek's attitude to arranging? I am arranging the third number from In the Mists for String trio (with a view to maybe doing them all - All are possible in theory at least), and although it's possible in the existing key, it would be much easier for string players a semitone higher. I know that Janacek was very attatched to certain keys, especially the flat ones (Db being the most personal of all), but would it be completely heinous to transpose? I can try both I guess - they will probably sound rather different...
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Luke

Quote from: Guido. on March 07, 2011, 04:40:51 PM
Does anyone know Janacek's attitude to arranging? I am arranging the third number from In the Mists for String trio (with a view to maybe doing them all - All are possible in theory at least), and although it's possible in the existing key, it would be much easier for string players a semitone higher. I know that Janacek was very attatched to certain keys, especially the flat ones (Db being the most personal of all), but would it be completely heinous to transpose? I can try both I guess - they will probably sound rather different...

I would be very loathe to transpose myself, although I'm not sure about Janacek's own attitude. It's not as if he steers clear of D flat, A flat etc in his own quartets, is it?! As you say, these very flat keys are very special to Janacek, and more so than is the case with other composers with 'favourite keys', their influence pervades the music. I could drone on about it for a long time... The third one of Overgrown Path - is that A Blown-Away Leaf or Come With Us, I've momentarily forgotten!? If the latter, I actually used it as a case study of Janacek's streatment of D flat in my dissertation, the issue is so strong here, and in general, the first few pieces in OP are almost 'about' C sharp/D flat, they are so firmly rooted in it.

But OTOH I see your point! There are some arrangements of some of OP for strings by Jarmil Burghauser which are nice, though still, the pieces lose something. When I get home I will check what keys they are in...

Guido

Quote from: Luke on March 07, 2011, 11:33:11 PM
I would be very loathe to transpose myself, although I'm not sure about Janacek's own attitude. It's not as if he steers clear of D flat, A flat etc in his own quartets, is it?! As you say, these very flat keys are very special to Janacek, and more so than is the case with other composers with 'favourite keys', their influence pervades the music. I could drone on about it for a long time... The third one of Overgrown Path - is that A Blown-Away Leaf or Come With Us, I've momentarily forgotten!? If the latter, I actually used it as a case study of Janacek's streatment of D flat in my dissertation, the issue is so strong here, and in general, the first few pieces in OP are almost 'about' C sharp/D flat, they are so firmly rooted in it.

But OTOH I see your point! There are some arrangements of some of OP for strings by Jarmil Burghauser which are nice, though still, the pieces lose something. When I get home I will check what keys they are in...

Hmm yeah. I guess I can try both. I'm doing In the Mists though, Not Overgrown Path. Strangely, OP has far more notes sounding in all the pieces, and In the Mists, which always sounds like a "bigger" piece to me is usually playable by three solo lines, with occasional double stops.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Would be interested to hear some of the dronings. Especially in a paradigmatic case...
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Luke

Quote from: Guido. on March 08, 2011, 06:12:45 AM
Hmm yeah. I guess I can try both. I'm doing In the Mists though, Not Overgrown Path. Strangely, OP has far more notes sounding in all the pieces, and In the Mists, which always sounds like a "bigger" piece to me is usually playable by three solo lines, with occasional double stops.

Sorry, misread you. I'd say go for it - it's great music, worth hearing in as many forms as possible, especially the string trio, a grouping I love so much! Would be interesting to see how it turned out. The pedal is such an important factor in that set of pieces, though - there's so much use of the effects of chords bleeding into each other, almost a written-out illustration of Janacek's own theory of 'spletna', the acoustical 'twining' which he said occured for a millisecond when one chord changes to another and which he thought was vital for musical expression, as it penetrated very deep. In the Mists is a psychological study of the composer in trauma, I think, and its full of these bleedings, as I say, which depends on the pedal a great deal, and which might be difficult in the strings. OTOH, another famous example of a written-out spletna is the opening motive of the 1st quartet, so it must be possible...!

Something else I could drone about - maybe later!

Guido

Fascinating! Never knew that but I've always felt this with Janacek's music - somehow often very plain chords just seems to emerge from the previous one completely transformed by their context, almost always to extraordinary effect. I agree though that it's important in all music. Have been listening to the operas a lot recently.

This sounds like it might be related to his theory of cadences with all notes relating to the final chord, rather than their own one...?

I'll arrange this one both ways and see how well each works.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Sarka's absolutely gorgeous! Definitely worth investigating if you know all the mature operas - much to love here too. I don't know how much Janacek added when he revised it (between Osud and Broucek) but it sounds thoroughly Janacekian to my ears which I wasn't expecting at all.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Brian

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2011, 08:51:55 AM
You see I don't hear a big-boned robustness in Ancerl's Glagolitic Mass recording at all. I don't hear any feverish outbursts, which I think is apart of Janacek's music, nor do I hear much thought given in the musical phrasing from Ancerl. The Czech Philharmonic Orchestra have also played better with other conductors in this score most notably Charles Mackerras.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 03, 2011, 01:44:09 PM
So to reiterate my opinion, here's why I don't like Ancerl's Glagolitic Mass recording: 1. less than ideal sonics, 2. no attention given to the musical phrasing, and 3. failure to reach the climaxes the way I would like them to be reached.

Aside from use of the truncated score, there are only two problems I have with Ancerl's Glagolitic Mass. (Taking this to the Janacek thread for ease of conservation and, hopefully, expansion of discussion.)
1. Sound quality can't capture details like the muted trombones in "Agnece Bozij."
2. In the same movement, the differentiation between male and female choristers is not as clear as on other recordings.

Some of Ancerl's decision in his recording are fairly nonstandard, but I approve of them. Most salient is his especially slow "Uvod": 3:22 where most folks seem to settle in around the two-minute mark. I don't understand why anyone would speed through the movement, though, as the repetition does not grate on the ears and in any case, the woodwind phrases invariably sound rushed and violins struggle to keep up.

I think what makes Ancerl work for me is the 50/50 mixture of primal ruggedness and a strange sort of timeless nobility. This is a recording where the teeming strangeness and exuberant rhythms live side-by-side with a really elevated dignity. It fits in with my own view of the Glagolitic Mass as the unbeliever Janacek's blueprint for what religion should have been: not glum stuff about death but a celebration of life.

Oh, yeah, and I have a man-crush on Beno Blachut's voice.  ;)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2011, 05:49:28 AMI think what makes Ancerl work for me is the 50/50 mixture of primal ruggedness and a strange sort of timeless nobility. This is a recording where the teeming strangeness and exuberant rhythms live side-by-side with a really elevated dignity. It fits in with my own view of the Glagolitic Mass as the unbeliever Janacek's blueprint for what religion should have been: not glum stuff about death but a celebration of life.

I did not hear anything primal nor did I hear timeless nobility in this recording. I heard a dull performance let down by even duller sonics. My favorite Glagolitic Mass recordings are Mackerras (Supraphon), MTT, and Rattle.