Janáček (Leoš' Lair)

Started by karlhenning, June 12, 2007, 04:21:16 AM

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Scarpia

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 07:09:19 AM
I did not hear anything primal nor did I hear timeless nobility in this recording. I heard a dull performance let down by even duller sonics. My favorite Glagolitic Mass recordings are Mackerras (Supraphon), MTT, and Rattle.

Given the eloquence with which so many people have written of that recording on this forum and elsewhere, I think your claims of not hearing anything good in it will only convince readers that you don't have a very perceptive ear.

I haven't heard any of the recording you mention except Rattle, which I enjoyed less than Chailly/Vienna Philharmonic (although I seem to be in a minority in preferring, or even knowing about, the Chailly recording).  I've recently gotten the Mackerras/Danish because it uses the original version of piece, but haven't had time to listen.

Mirror Image

#161
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 08:27:30 AM
Given the eloquence with which so many people have written of that recording on this forum and elsewhere, I think your claims of not hearing anything good in it will only convince readers that you don't have a very perceptive ear.

I haven't heard any of the recording you mention except Rattle, which I enjoyed less than Chailly/Vienna Philharmonic (although I seem to be in a minority in preferring, or even knowing about, the Chailly recording).

So anybody who doesn't like a so-called "legendary" recording doesn't have a perceptive ear now? Whatever. ::)

The greatest part of Ancerl's performance was when it ended. I never had been that disappointed with a recording in a long time. I know the Chailly quite well and it does little for me. I'm most moved by MTT and Mackerras (Supraphon) with the Rattle coming in a distant third.

Scarpia

I don't know the Ancerl, and I'm not likely to because I generally do not go for older recordings unless there is a strong reason.  I'm just responding to what I'm reading, which is of the form [poetic musings about Ancerl recording] followed by [oh yea, well I say it stinks!]. 


Mirror Image

I made my opinion of Ancerl's Glagoltic Mass quite clear on another thread, but to reiterate my opinion (again), here's what I don't like about that recording: 1. poor audio quality, 2. no attention given to the musical line, and 3. no feeling for the climaxes. If you want me to even more specific, the joyful outbursts that are in the Credo and Sanctus sections were poorly executed. The Intrada section lacked the strong rhythmic drive I'm accustomed to hearing and enjoy. I just don't think the recording is worthy of the praise it receives. If you like it, Scarpia, Brian, Daverz, etc., then that's great, but I don't share your enthusiasm for it whatsoever.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 08:59:30 AM
I don't know the Ancerl, and I'm not likely to because I generally do not go for older recordings unless there is a strong reason.  I'm just responding to what I'm reading, which is of the form [poetic musings about Ancerl recording] followed by [oh yea, well I say it stinks!].

Read above, Scarpia. I told you why I don't like the recording. You haven't heard the recording and are not likely to, then why defend it just based on what people wrote about it?

I have told members here that I'm terrible with describing music and more importantly why I dislike the performances I have claimed to have been disappointed in. I did my best in describing why I don't enjoy the Ancerl recording.

Scarpia

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:07:48 AM
Read above, Scarpia. I told you why I don't like the recording. You haven't heard the recording and are not likely to, then why defend it just based on what people wrote about it?

I have told members here that I'm terrible with describing music and more importantly why I dislike the performances I have claimed to have been disappointed in. I did my best in describing why I don't enjoy the Ancerl recording.

Hmmm, maybe I should get the recording.  Interesting that it evokes reactions that are so different.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 09:08:55 AMHmmm, maybe I should get the recording.  Interesting that it evokes reactions that are so different.

If you like subpar audio, which you just said you didn't, then knock yourself out.

Scarpia

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:11:50 AM
If you like subpar audio, which you just said you didn't, then knock yourself out.

I said unless there is a strong reason, which there might be here.

MishaK

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:03:59 AM
I made my opinion of Ancerl's Glagoltic Mass quite clear on another thread, but to reiterate my opinion (again), here's what I don't like about that recording: 1. poor audio quality, 2. no attention given to the musical line, and 3. no feeling for the climaxes. If you want me to even more specific, the joyful outbursts that are in the Credo and Sanctus sections were poorly executed. The Intrada section lacked the strong rhythmic drive I'm accustomed to hearing and enjoy. I just don't think the recording is worthy of the praise it receives. If you like it, Scarpia, Brian, Daverz, etc., then that's great, but I don't share your enthusiasm for it whatsoever.

Sorry, MI, but here is my issue with your statement: you're listening to things that do not really matter to others. What the heck is the "musical line" in Janacek anyway? This is not Dvorak. A lack of rhythmic drive is not something I heard here. My advice: don't toss this recording. Keep and revisit it in a few years with fresh ears. You're missing something here. Also, this isn't *that* old of a recording, and while the sound isn't stellar, it's by no means a dealbreaker. Mackerras is nice.  I don't know the MTT or Chailly. But in any case, all of these are the simplified version with the simpler rhthms, abbreviated timpani and organ solos, etc., which I find difficult to listen to anyway, having come to this piece from the restored original Wingfield edition.

Scarpia

Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 09:12:49 AM
which I find difficult to listen to anyway, having come to this piece from the restored original Wingfield edition.

Which restored version recording do you prefer?

MishaK

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 09:14:03 AM
Which restored version recording do you prefer?

There isn't a decent one available at the moment. Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll find a detailed discussion on the subject. The only commercial recording available is Mackerras/Danish PO on Chandos which is tad on the jetlagged side of things with a so-so orchestra. There used to be a live CSO broadcast with Boulez on a "CSO - From The Archives" set that the CSO issued for a fundraiser several years ago which is quite excellent (though even that is not nearly as good as the performance I heard Boulez conduct here in Chicago last year). There also used to be a Hickox recording with BBC that was distributed for free with the BBC magazine, also unavailable now. But AFAIK those three are the only recordings so far of the restored original version.

Mirror Image

#171
Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 09:12:49 AM
Sorry, MI, but here is my issue with your statement: you're listening to things that do not really matter to others. What the heck is the "musical line" in Janacek anyway? This is not Dvorak. A lack of rhythmic drive is not something I heard here. My advice: don't toss this recording. Keep and revisit it in a few years with fresh ears. You're missing something here. Also, this isn't *that* old of a recording, and while the sound isn't stellar, it's by no means a dealbreaker. Mackerras is nice.  I don't know the MTT or Chailly. But in any case, all of these are the simplified version with the simpler rhthms, abbreviated timpani and organ solos, etc., which I find difficult to listen to anyway, having come to this piece from the restored original Wingfield edition.

When I'm talking about musical line, I'm talking about phrasing. I love this when somebody knocks a legendary recording everybody scurries about like a bunch of children. I'm listening for things that do not really matter to others? I really hope so, because I listen for different things than other people, because I'm my own person with my own independent thoughts. Hmmmm...imagine that?

Just admit it already: I'm wrong and everybody else is right! This is what it seems like you would like to say anyway.

Scarpia

Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
There isn't a decent one available at the moment. Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll find a detailed discussion on the subject. The only commercial recording available is Mackerras/Danish PO on Chandos which is tad on the jetlagged side of things with a so-so orchestra. There used to be a live CSO broadcast with Boulez on a "CSO - From The Archives" set that the CSO issued for a fundraiser several years ago which is quite excellent (though even that is not nearly as good as the performance I heard Boulez conduct here in Chicago last year). There also used to be a Hickox recording with BBC that was distributed for free with the BBC magazine, also unavailable now. But AFAIK those three are the only recordings so far of the restored original version.

Hmmm, as I mentioned I have the Mackerras/Danish but everyone is so down on it I haven't listened to it.  Seems like what I really need is a lossless rip of that Boulez.   :(

Mirror Image

#173
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 09:26:21 AM
Hmmm, as I mentioned I have the Mackerras/Danish but everyone is so down on it I haven't listened to it.  Seems like what I really need is a lossless rip of that Boulez.   :(

Scarpia you should see if you can track down a copy of MTT's performance of the Mass with the LSO on Sony. It also has an outstanding performance of Sinfonietta on it. The orchestral clarity in this recording is remarkable.

[asin]B0000027IN[/asin]

Looks like there's one available right now for around $10 (a decent price for an out-of-print MTT recording). The packaging for this CD is also quite good. It has a slipcase and a nice detailed booklet that comes with it.

MishaK

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:21:45 AM
When I'm talking about musical line, I'm talking about phrasing. I love this when somebody knocks a legendary recording everybody scurries about like a bunch of children. I'm listening for things that do not really matter to others? I really hope so, because I listen for different things than other people, because I'm my own person with my own independent thoughts. Hmmmm...imagine that?

Just admit it already: I'm wrong and everybody else is right! This is what it seems like you would like to say anyway.

MI, I knock "legendary" recordings all the time. See Brahms thread.  ;) My point is, it's valid to say, "I hear what you're hearing but I don't like it for reasons a, b, c". But you are saying, "what you guys are hearing simply isn't there". That leads me to believe you weren't really listening under optimal conditions (mental, acoustic, etc.) and have maybe a skewed recollection. When someone posts a rash review that denies the existence of what everyone else is hearing, in most cases a more careful listening would help improve the listening experience. I say that not to bash you, but because I myself am guilty of that often enough. We all sometimes listen under less than ideal conditions and leave with skewed impressions, only to later rediscover that recordings we supposedly hated are actually really interesting.  :)

Philoctetes

Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
There isn't a decent one available at the moment. Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll find a detailed discussion on the subject. The only commercial recording available is Mackerras/Danish PO on Chandos which is tad on the jetlagged side of things with a so-so orchestra.

http://www.youtube.com/v/7rPvWrhVPP8

Sounds pretty good to me.

Mirror Image

Quote from: MishaK on April 04, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
MI, I knock "legendary" recordings all the time. See Brahms thread.  ;) My point is, it's valid to say, "I hear what you're hearing but I don't like it for reasons a, b, c". But you are saying, "what you guys are hearing simply isn't there". That leads me to believe you weren't really listening under optimal conditions (mental, acoustic, etc.) and have maybe a skewed recollection. When someone posts a rash review that denies the existence of what everyone else is hearing, in most cases a more careful listening would help improve the listening experience. I say that not to bash you, but because I myself am guilty of that often enough. We all sometimes listen under less than ideal conditions and leave with skewed impressions, only to later rediscover that recordings we supposedly hated are actually really interesting.  :)

No, I never said or implied that "what you guys are hearing simply isn't there." I was describing what I didn't hear, but what would have liked to have heard, which, in turn, gives the reader an idea of what I look for in a recording of this work. I simply stated that I did not like the recording and here's why I didn't like it. What you guys can't accept is that my opinion is different than your own.

As I said, I have my own independent thoughts whether you accept them or not is irrelevant at this juncture. You clearly don't understand why someone could not like a recording that is praised to the hills and that's okay if you don't, but it isn't a lack of perception on my part. It's a simple of matter of it didn't connect with me. The end.

Scarpia

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:30:38 AM
Scarpia you should see if you can track down a copy of MTT's performance of the Mass with the LSO on Sony. It also has an outstanding performance of Sinfonietta on it. The orchestral clarity in this recording is remarkable.

[asin]B0000027IN[/asin]

Looks like there's one available right now for around $10 (a decent price for an out-of-print MTT recording). The packaging for this CD is also quite good. It has a slipcase and a nice detailed booklet that comes with it.

I generally like MTT, so I should look into it.  But in the end what I really want is a good recording of the restored score.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 04, 2011, 09:45:24 AM
I generally like MTT, so I should look into it.  But in the end what I really want is a good recording of the restored score.

I would like a good recording of the original score as well, but alas, a commercial recording seems unlikely right now. I simply take what I can get and taking a chance on MTT, who I'm always cautious about, was a bit risky, but it turned out, he delivered a very surprising performance. Full of energy and the orchestral clarity is out-of-this-world. This is probably one of the most impressive recordings I've heard from him.

Opus106

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 04, 2011, 09:49:47 AM
I would like a good recording of the original score as well, but alas, a commercial recording seems unlikely right now.

I may have missed your comment about it, but what about Mackerras and the CzPO, which I believe you have bought? Do you not like it or is the original scoring not used (latter less likely methinks :))?
Regards,
Navneeth