Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[karlhenning]

John Williams (and other movie composers for that matter) compose diverse music for different kind of scenes in movies. Do you hear pumped-up accents in Yoda's Theme?

Cheap diversity does not classical music make either.  Elvis sang both "Jailhouse Rock" and "Love Me Tender."  That difference in overall tone doesn't make Elvis a classical musician, either.

[DavidRoss]

It's great to see you back David. 

...but I totally disagree

About pole dancing and ballet? 

I love you, too, Ben...and love that we can disagree without being disagreeable!  Wouldn't it be lovely if we could all express our opinions without looking at those who disagree like Hitler looked at Poland? 

[71 dB]

Cheap diversity does not classical music make either.  Elvis sang both "Jailhouse Rock" and "Love Me Tender."  That difference in overall tone doesn't make Elvis a classical musician, either.

Cheap diversity? Really? John Williams is one of the most successful, respected and awarded movie composer ever. Whatever you try to say, there is something valuable in his music. DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.

[DavidRoss]

DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.

DavidRoss made no effort to "prove" anything, nor made any argument.   And he bears scant resemblance to Poland.

[karlhenning]

Cheap diversity? Really?

Yes; diversity in music is easy to achieve.  That question is entirely orthogonal to the question of value in music.  I didn't think that was particularly hard to grasp, Poju.

[karlhenning]

DavidRoss tried to "prove" JW's music isn't classical because it is only pumped-up accents. His argument were not valid because the music is diverse.

But this is gibberish, Poju.  Firstly, because you completely misrepresent (and quite possibly completely misunderstand) what David had to say.  And secondly, because no question of diversity in Williams's music invalidates any argument which has been advanced in this thread.

[Catison]

So are we discussing if movie music is classical music or if it is good music?

[karlhenning]

So are we discussing if movie music is classical music or if it is good music?

An excellently perceptive question.

[karlhenning]

I was about to write more, but (while normally I like keyboard shortcuts) this was one of those times where I thought I was typing, but my message got posted.

[jochanaan]

I was about to write more, but (while normally I like keyboard shortcuts) this was one of those times where I thought I was typing, but my message got posted.

So what "more" were you about to write?

[71 dB]

Firstly, because you completely misrepresent (and quite possibly completely misunderstand) what David had to say.  And secondly, because no question of diversity in Williams's music invalidates any argument which has been advanced in this thread.[/font]

Aha.

[RJR]

Herrmann vs. Williams? No contest. Herrmann wins. Easily.

[Daverz]

I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

Plenty of classical "concert" music could be described in just as disdainful terms.

[Scarpia]

I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

After some of the modern Ballet I've seen, I'm thinking maybe yes.   

[DavidW]

The Star Wars scores are full of amazing music, but they are not classical music; they are movie scores.  Movies are not the operas of our time, they are the movies of our time.  The opera of our time is simply that, opera.  I doubt John Adams feels like he is competing with Jerry Bruckheimer.

The unspoken assumption here is that movie scores, because they are not classical music, are somehow lesser forms of art.  That is not correct either.  They are amazing examples of music written for the cinema, and that is important.  Although they are wonderful to listen to on their own, we cannot divorce them from their intended use, which is to comment on a visual story told in widescreen moving images.  That is precisely why they are not classical music; because they were never primarily intended to stand on their own.  To call them classical music would be to deny the very reason why they are great.

This post is perfect and the discussion need not have continued after it.

[Gurn Blanston]

This post is perfect and the discussion need not have continued after it.

And yet, sadly, it did...   Mainly perpetuated by people who believed that what they like or dislike is sufficient to make the result true or false... like we usually do...

[karlhenning]

John Cage might say, I have nothing to add, and I am adding it.

[jowcol]

John Cage might say, I have nothing to add, and I am adding it.

The pupils of the Tendai School used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence. On the first day all were silent Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil-lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: 'Fix those lamps.' The second pupil was surprised to hear the first one talk. 'We are not supposed to say a word,' he remarked. 'You two are stupid. Why did you talk?' asked the third. 'I am the only one who has not talked,' muttered the fourth pupil.

[71 dB]

It's all about how restricted definition we give to term classical music.

If the definition is very restricted then it is clear the music for Star Wars movies is not classical music but if we expand the definition a little pit, some movie  music and classical music starts to overlap. In my opinion it is logical to have some overlapping. Hip Hop is used in some movies these days. So, Hip Hop is movie music AND Hip Hop. If Star Wars music is only movie music then we have an absurd situation: By classification Star Wars music seems to be closer to Hip Hop used in movies than classical music (say, Holst's Planets).

Because music used in movies can be practically anything from baroque to reggae, it is logical to have subgroups within movie music (classical movie music, techno movie music, rock movie music, jazz movie music etc.) The result of this is that the definitions of all music styles are expanded toward movie music resulting overlapping.

Lots of people who think classical music sucks do like the music of Star Wars movies (I myself used to be one of these people). If Star Wars music is given the label of classical music, it will encourage people to explore and find the treasures of "real" classical music.

One confusing aspect of the music for Star Wars (and other similar orchestral music by John Williams) is that it sounds orchestral (symphonic) but is functionally operatic; it's purpose it to strengthen story telling, movie experience.
   

[karlhenning]

One confusing aspect of the music for Star Wars (and other similar orchestral music by John Williams) is that it sounds orchestral (symphonic) but is functionally operatic; it's purpose it to strengthen story telling, movie experience.

No, you are confused ; )  It is not functionally operatic, it is functionally cinematic.  It's fine to discuss how the term classical music might or might not be bound, but you shouldn't play so fast and loose with the meaning of opera.  Being a Jn Williams enthusiast shouldn't muddle you so much that you can no longer distinguish between opera and film.