Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

Started by paganinio, November 05, 2009, 08:43:55 PM

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Star Wars music = classical music?

No
Yes

Philoctetes

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 08:33:30 AM
Figures, typical response from someone who has been nothing more than just 'background noise' here.

Coming from a fellow that seemingly un-hinges his own defition to suit his feeble purposes. You're 'definition' is in quite a weak state, already taken to task by many of the other posters, but again, I do find you amusing, so I'm quite pleased with your selective reading range.

Grazioso

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 07:50:47 AM
Now a parallel to Bach's sacred music ... when does it end. And the fact 'film cheese' (or a pop tune) moves people doesn't mean anything either.

If your characterization of classical/art music hinges on subjective notions like quality, then it certainly does matter. Is not one of art's traditional central purposes to move its audience? E.g., the catharsis of Greek tragedy, the devotional or propaganda aims of Medieval or Counter-Reformation Christian art, and so on. Could you point to classical composers prior to the 20th century who intentionally and explicitly took audience expectations/reactions out of the compositional equation?

Quote
Look, it's really not my way as you say, and it shouldn't need to be 'proved' at all. It's just common sense that anyone with enough musical experience & exposure should be able to easily distinguish differences between pop or film materials and oh; some of the names mentioned thus far... Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius etc. If you or anyone else here haven't the

That's just it: your "common sense" is not everyone's common sense. You take your personal judgments and biases as universal facts that no one need question.

I for one can distinguish between Stravinsky and Williams as easily as I can distinguish green from red, but that says nothing about their inherent merits or how to best classify their work. (And some people can't distinguish green from red, for that matter...)

Since you possess the ability to tell musical right from wrong, could you please provide some detailed analysis of the Star Wars soundtrack, with music examples, that shows how it fails to meet the criteria of serious art or classical music?
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Philoctetes

I've never even really listened to Williams, but I found some lovely clips on youtube.

Viola Concerto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rse5ZLfGFXE

Bassoon Concerto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRphu9bm0VI


petrarch

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 04:04:57 PM
Quality isn't a subjective notion. It actually exists.

So what's the formula for measuring it?
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole


Lethevich

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.
This is a pretty brave thing to admit, as it's just asking for people to jump on your back about it - but I agree with you. The only easy measure - popular consensus - is a pretty poor way of doing things.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.

I agree with this myself, but it would not lead to so preposterous a comment as "Mozart is very overrated."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

petrarch

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 05:09:33 PM
There is no formula for measuring it, but it does exist.

Can you objectively define it?
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 02:48:29 AM
Can you objectively define it?

No one can do so "objectively." It's not something that can be proven mathematically. But since we're talking about a judgment of value, it is not so much an objective determination as the collective weight of a culture that, for most people who care about it, has found certain composers, writers, artists, etc., worthy of higher praise than others. And when their work is examined closely - by intelligent and sympathetic analysis, or just by attentive listening and viewing - it is possible to identify some aspects of these creators' work that merit such praise. This doesn't mean that everyone will agree on all points, but it does mean that when the collective weight of informed Western culture values Shakespeare over Middleton, or Beethoven over Dittersdorf, or Renoir over Bougoureau, then there must be something of merit in their work that is more than just a matter of "popularity" or "subjectivity."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Philoctetes

Did you'll listen to some of William's classical compositions?

They ain't half-bad. I mean it sort of that romantic drivel, but don't you guys enjoy that era of music?

71 dB

Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 03:30:06 AMBeethoven over Dittersdorf

There is probably a concensus that Beethoven > Dittersdorf but how much? If Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven form the "supreme" group of composer of classism, Dittersdors belongs to the next group and isn't much behind.

Is Dittersdorf > John Williams? Is Dittersdorf deeper? 
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW July 2025 "Liminal Feelings"

petrarch

Quote from: Sforzando on December 18, 2010, 03:30:06 AM
there must be something of merit in their work that is more than just a matter of "popularity" or "subjectivity."

So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

71 dB

Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.

The problem with classical music and art in general is that apprehensions are given. People don't question them that much it seems. Yes, Beethoven was damn great but that doesn't mean it's right to manipulate people to believe that without criticism. Nobody tells me how things are, I figure them out myself. Beethoven has to earn my respect just like any other composer. That's why I am able to criticize Beethoven's orchestration skills while greatly admiring his String Quartets.

Subjective or Objective? That is such a problem with art. Subjectivity gives (personal) meaning to art in my understanding but I also think there is a lot of objectivity too.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW July 2025 "Liminal Feelings"

jowcol

Quote from: petrarch on December 18, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
So, it's not objective nor subjective, and it eludes definition... And yet some still talk about it so very categorically, because oh, they just know it. Reminds of a certain other recurrent topic in this forum.

Its rather ironic that two of the posters who argue the most on this forum often resort to a "I just know it" response when asked about their assertions...
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

MN Dave


Grazioso

Quote from: James on December 17, 2010, 04:04:57 PM
Quality isn't a subjective notion. It actually exists. And moving an 'audience' is a bonus, but it's not the central pursuit, goal & focus in serious musical composition. The music is. All the artist can do is stay true, focused and be devoted to their craft (music composition), there is no formula or sure fire way on how this will affect people; serious composers don't play those guessing games - they stay focused on finding their 'own' voice & creating their 'own' music in a very deep & serious way. 

It really is just plain ol' common sense. Honest.

Well let me inform you that Stravinsky is much much deeper, on all musical fronts & purposes.
Proof is in the compositions. Just listen. Anyone with a musical brain will tell you this btw, not just me.

It's not an issue of right or wrong or 'analysis'. It's the focus, aims & goals. There are distinct differences between what serious composers do & write and what film composers do. Huge difference. One is solely focused on composing in a much more purely artistic, serious, deeper, even uncompromising way than the other across the board. This is obvious.

I ask again: please provide detailed evidence to back your assertions. You speak as if you're some enlightened final arbiter of musical value and aims, yet you say nothing about the music itself, and you don't quote composers or contemporary musical criticism to illustrate their artistic aims.

To simply say--repeatedly--that your assertions are obviously true and leave it at that is intellectually lazy.
There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

petrarch

//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
There is probably a concensus that Beethoven > Dittersdorf but how much?

If I had to guess 99.999999%.

Quote from: 71 dB on December 18, 2010, 05:41:01 AM
Dittersdors belongs to the next group and isn't much behind.

Yes, Dittersdorf certainly reminds me of a horse's behind.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."