Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[karlhenning]

Deeper and deeper.

QFT.

[MN Dave]

Commenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.

[karlhenning]

Commenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.

But there you go: when you're a "free-thinker" and fancy that, really, Dittersdorf is just as good as Beethoven, and that to think otherwise is to have permitted yourself to be brainwashed by The Great Beethoven Conspiracy . . . complaining that the grass is green is the only game you've got.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Commenting on Beethoven's skills are like complaining that grass is green.

Never heard of Kentucky bluegrass?

[MN Dave]

Never heard of Kentucky bluegrass?

Indeed I have. Bill Monroe bit into a bagel and stated, "This is the worst doughnut I ever did taste!"

[jochanaan]

Maybe Beethoven should have orchestrated the Star Wars music.  With Bill Monroe on banjo!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Maybe Beethoven should have orchestrated the Star Wars music.  With Bill Monroe on banjo!

Don't forget the piccolo.

[jowcol]

Yea so .. it's not studied by serious musicians I can assure you that !

THis looks like a take-it-on-faith assertion.  Or is there are certification process to ensure that anyone who takes (or teaches) film scoring is not "serious"?  Does someone make sure that these people don't have whoopie cushions or rubber chickens in their possession?  Doesn't like the Naked Gun movies?

Or are you taking upon yourself to define who is "serious" and who is not?   Or have the power to read all the minds of people who attend schools like Berklee?

[Florestan]

I have heard it. 

Ah, very well, this is where I wanted to get you! 

So, you have heard it, that is you have heard Beethoven's orchestration and it left you with the indelible impresion that the music, its structure and scale, is "very romantic". But this very fact gives a big lie to your assertion: far from being flawed, his orchestration is in fact very effective in conveying strong romantic feelings, you being living proof for that.

Any more shots in your own foot that you'd like to share with us? 

[Philoctetes]

Ah, very well, this is where I wanted to get you! 

So, you have heard it, that is you have heard Beethoven's orchestration and it left you with the indelible impresion that the music, its structure and scale, is "very romantic". But this very fact gives a big lie to your assertion: far from being flawed, his orchestration is in fact very effective in conveying strong romantic feelings, you being living proof for that.

Any more shots in your own foot that you'd like to share with us? 

This might be the lamest and weakest zinger ever.

[jowcol]

this comin' from the guy who said this earlier ..

True, and I still stand by it. 

Please note--

I was careful in that statement to say that IF a person meets certain set of criteria, THEN I would consider them as technicians and not artist. 

Note:

The  "IF" portion outlined the inclusion criteria-- I didn't make a bald statement about a large group of people which different goals and intents.


The  THEN portion still reflected my own opinion -- I said "I would agree" which means it's just my silly-assed opinion.  I did not try to express it as any objective fact.   I try not to confuse my opinion with with facts, and as you can see in the quote you thoughtfully provided, I was careful to make the distinction.


And I did NOT say that  everyone who teaches or studies film scoring is not a serious artist. To do so would be making a broad, unprovable statement that all of these people share the  same intent.   Such an assertion would be pretty baseless, would it not?  How would I know what all these people I've never met are intending?  Have I interviewed them?   Any broad generalization I would make about them would be pretty meaningless, would it not?  And would not really make much of a logical foundation if I'm trying to convince anyone who believes otherwise.

I'd be interested to see if you will answer that latter half of my post-- but I wasn't expecting that to happen.

[Grazioso]

Yea so .. it's not studied by serious musicians I can assure you that ! They'd be better off studying the stuff he rips off and steering themselves clear of the subservient film path !

Film composers aren't serious musicians? Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams, Copland, and Korngold--to name but a few--weren't serious musicians? Why are advanced degrees in film music offered? Why is it taught as part of standard composition curricula? Why is the function and history of film music taught in liberal arts programs? You clearly aren't serious about film and film music, but others are.

It's commercial wallpaper to images etc. on the screen. Picture music, a couple hairs shy (& maybe with a bigger budget) of what you see on tv, or commericals, or cartoons, or video games or even MTV. If it were premiered on it's own as the latest 20th Century classical composition (pff chuckle) with no ties or relations whatsoever to it's big commerical hollywood blockbuster film & culture it would be laughed at as merely derivative pastiche & cornball fluff. And forgotten fast.

Well, Tchaikovsky was mocked as cornball fluff in his day, but his music has done all right. When you keep referring to film music as "wallpaper to images" it merely exposes your personal bias and lack of study of film. It's like insisting that basketball is a game where two teams sit on benches and sometimes a few of the players throw a ball around.

We've went over this already...but you obviously didn't read or even think about what was said earlier .. Williams's music on it's own ain't no Handel, Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Wagner, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Bernstein OR not even little ol' J.Strauss  ... and they obviously haven't been thrown overboard have they? I wonder why that is? They had their own voices for starts, but why go over all of this again & again & again ... You'll come around one day.

Sure, I've read, thought about, and rejected what you've said. As I and others have repeatedly noted, it's not a question of some subjective, elusive quality like depth or seriousness or sense or purpose. You speak of composers having their own voice, yet Williams's style certainly sounds very recognizable to my ears. Because I hear it a certain way, does that automatically create a truth?

Now, if Williams's film music can't be considered classical music because it's derivative of others' music, you should a) show it with concrete musical examples (which you've refused to do) and b) reject all the composers out there who can sound like their peers or forebears. A bunch of the classical canon would be instantly wiped out.

the music itself divorced from it's commercial  hit film context basically is tho .. I know it's hard for you acknowledge this but maybe one day when you're listening to your Conan the Barbarian soundtrack at home you'll understand.

If it's ephemeral, why do people still listen to soundtrack music on its own, works by the composers I listed above, and others like Bernstein, Herrmann, Rosza, Waxman, Steiner, et al.? All dead and gone, yet still listened to, studied, and enjoyed, ergo not ephemeral.

And have you listened to the Conan the Barbarian soundtrack and seen the movie? Unlike you, I'm offering specific examples, in this case of how music can be foregrounded in what is essentially a music drama.

[jowcol]

Where are all of the musical heavyweights coming out of the film world then? Certainly it's not the model or routine in creating such a thing, is it.

Valid point.   I agree that this certainly is not the model or routine approach-- particularly in the last coupla decades.  But that is a lot softer a stance than saying the two paths were mutually exclusive-- which has been the assertion you've made earlier that I've been questioning. 

[jochanaan]

...Going into film isn't 'serious' or deeply artistic music making ... it's about the world of film and commercialism...

You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.

[jowcol]

Going into film isn't 'serious' or deeply artistic music making ... it's about the world of film and commercialism.

Believe it or not, not all films are commercial.  Just as music can have its "popular" and "art" camps, so can film.  ( I'm assuming most of us have  heard of art films before, and possibly even seen one.)   Would you consider Koyaanasqatsi a commercial film with a superficial plot?

Yes, the majority of films produced today aren't art films, but neither is the majority of music produced in this country "art music".   Assuming that one medium is capable of artistic expression and that another is not capable  is a bit of reach, isn't it?

[jowcol]

You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.

Funny-- we posted this example at the same time.

FWIW-- Koyaanisqatsi is probably my favorite Glass work, and I also think the full Score works much better as a whole than the truncated soundtrack album that was first released. 

[DavidRoss]

You don't do your argument any good by making a universal statement like this that can be so easily discredited by a single counter-example; in this case, Koyaanisqatsi and its two companion films, Powaqqatsi and Nakoyqatsi.  Whatever you think of Philip Glass, for these movies he worked closely with director Godfrey Reggio and photography director Ron Fricke as the films were being shot, before there was anything like a finished visual product.  The resulting films are completely original, have a deeply artistic conception and a strong message, and--at least for me--are deeply moving.

Yep--and I actually listen to the soundtracks occasionally.  But then I think some of Glass's best work has been scoring for film. 

So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?

[Scarpia]

So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?

We could try to proclaim Mendelssohn is not classical music, but what would be the fun with Saul here?   

[DavidRoss]

We could try to proclaim Mendelssohn is not classical music, but what would be the fun with Saul here?   

Well, it's obvious to anyone with ears, sensitivity, genius, and chosen people status that Mendelssohn's music is not classical, since much of what he composed was in the new-fangled Romantic mode outside of the tradition and had extra-musical illustrative purposes.   

[jowcol]

Quote from: Grazioso on Today at 06:55:40 AM

Film composers aren't serious musicians? Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams, Copland, and Korngold--to name but a few--weren't serious musicians? Why are advanced degrees in film music offered? Why is it taught as part of standard composition curricula? Why is the function and history of film music taught in liberal arts programs? You clearly aren't serious about film and film music, but others are.

We're went over this before. They aren't known & associated with just films tho are they? Nope, hardly .. they did lots else.

True, and conceded.  I can't think of any "serious" composer I know of and like that only wrote for film, and the examples we've been citing have demonstrated their worth in other applications.   

However, that is a long way from some of the previous assertions such as:

And what real deep musician who takes their music seriously would want their 'music' premiered in such a way? Often buried & competing in the audio mix of constant dialog and sound effects associated with film. Can you imagine ..

As we've pointed out, the names of musicians that either did (or expressed the willingness to) have their music premiered in such a way included the likes of Vaughan Williams, Alwyn, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, Schoenberg, Glass,  etc.   

Once again, I have no trouble conceding the point that they may be the minority of film composers, or that they earned a great deal of their street cred on other applications.   Nor that, for me personally, John Williams doesn't do it for me.  (Although  I really like Jerry Goldsmith's score for Alien-- a lot of which was never used in the film).