Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[(poco) Sforzando]

'

Why not read my other posts, twat?

Very classy response, KD.

[Philoctetes]

Very classy response, KD.

Well if there is one character trait that I think I exemplify: It's class.

... and decorum.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well if there is one character trait that I think I exemplify: It's class.

... and decorum.

Right.

[Luke]

Evidence? Pfff Hardly .. let's present this amazing film stuff everyone is alluding to (but doesn't exist).. so far all we have is just Koyaanisqatsi which is well lol

No, James, you weren't really following, were you? In my case, I wasn't trying to to 'present amazing film stuff'. No, I was trying to inch towards some kind of idea as to what it is that makes film scores a tricky case for classification, by trying to find a film score which is not a tricky case and observing the differences between it and the more usual type of film score. Koyaanisqatsi, which you are as at liberty to scoff at in your standard 'James is being derisive' tones (i.e. insert 'pffff', 'lol', 'blabla' et al at will....  ) as others scoff at Stockhausen is, nevertheless, certainly a piece of Classical Music.* Though I'm not really an admirer of Glass, and especially not of his recent music, I do think that Koyaanisqatsi makes as good a case for it as can be made, and I can't imagine music which would better parallel the imagery of the film, either, for that matter. However, my tastes and your tastes aren't really the issue: Koyaanisqatsi shows that film music can be CM with as much integrity as concert-only music; the question is, or was, why is this, and why doesn't the same apply to all film scores, in principle. I offered my tentative answer last time, I'm not going to do it again**

*and please note, James, that when you asked me for my take on this issue I said I wasn't sure, and I'm still not, but I am sure that the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack is CM - it is in trying to work out why i'm so sure of this and so unsure about Williams et al that I hope to work out where the nub of the issue is, for me at any rate.

** except to say, Neal, I think, reading your reaction to my post, that actually we do agree on that issue which was troubling you 

[DavidRoss]

Not about Star Wars, but of interest, perhaps, given the more general topic of this discussion.  From Chris Orr's review of the Coen brothers' True Grit:

But the real reason to see the film is the work of the Coens' regular collaborators, cinematographer Roger Deakins and composer Carter Burwell, who supply the visual and auditory landscapes that are True Grit's most notable achievement. (Burwell's evocative score, which consists largely of delicate variations on the hymn "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms"—and recalls his magnificent appropriation of "Limerick's Lamentation" in Miller's Crossing—is alone worth the price of admission.)

[Bogey]

Not about Star Wars, but of interest, perhaps, given the more general topic of this discussion.  From Chris Orr's review of the Coen brothers' True Grit:

I smell "Oscar" nominee, David.

[jochanaan]

As a whole, my reaction was similar to yours. But on one point we differed, that being " So I think that the anti-music-as-entertainment and anti-music-as-commercial-product line doesn't really hold water, but I think that if you were arguing that the composer of classical music is allowed to work (or wishes to work) with more artistic integrity than the composer of film scores, you might be close to the truth. That possibility of independent integrity is the difference..."

Perhaps I don't know enough about the ins and outs of film music (and thus lack crucial information), but this was the one thing I really disagreed with. If we were to ask Williams, Mancini, Shore, etc., whether they had lost their musical/artisitic integrity in writing film scores, I suspect they would not agree.

If what is meant by this is that there are compromises made that the composer might not otherwise have faced, I think I would be more quiet. But many composers in history have faced censors of some sort or another, and changed plots, music, etc. because of it. Working with others in a business like film seems quite analogous to that example (to me).

Censorship is not the only reason that many "classical masterworks" get changed.  Operas and ballets, believe it or not, are seldom if not never given as the composer originally wrote them.  Handel and Mozart both produced several "versions" of the same opera or oratorio.  The Messiah went through at least a dozen revisions during Handel's lifetime, all of them thoroughly dependent on the orchestral and vocal forces he had available; for example, the aria "But who may abide?" exists in arrangements for bass, alto, and soprano--all from Handel's hand!  Mozart added an aria to Don Giovanni specifically because the tenor role did not already have a major aria, and for a Vienna performance he had a tenor who both deserved and (probably) demanded one.  I have played in the orchestra for The Nutcracker maybe two dozen times--not once as Tchaikovsky originally wrote it; every time there have been cuts or scene switches (like the times the Sugar Plum Fairy dance has been moved to the beginning of Act II rather than played near the end as written) or other changes.

Any time you get others involved with your music, it changes.  Inevitably.  Sometimes even for the better.

[DavidRoss]

I smell "Oscar" nominee, David.

I saw it yesterday, Bill.  I don't think so.  Of course, you never know with the Motion Picture Academy.  Those clowns are so dumb they confuse Michael Moore's movies for documentaries!

[karlhenning]

Ouch!

: )

[karlhenning]

Separately: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the 25 films added to the US National Film Registry today.

Others include: Saturday Night Fever & Airplane!

[jowcol]

Separately: The Empire Strikes Back is one of the 25 films added to the US National Film Registry today.

Others include: Saturday Night Fever & Airplane!

Surely you can't be serious.

[karlhenning]

Guess I picked the wrong month to give up egg nog.

[Scarpia]

Stuck at Granny's house waiting for the airport to sort things out I heard (through the walls) lots of old "B" movies blasting on the television.  Lots of "sonic wallpaper" was evident.  Star Wars soundtrack may not be Brahms or Stravinsky, but typical "sonic wallpaper" it aint!

[karlhenning]

Stuck at Granny's house waiting for the airport to sort things out I heard (through the walls) lots of old "B" movies blasting on the television.  Lots of "sonic wallpaper" was evident.  Star Wars soundtrack may not be Brahms or Stravinsky, but typical "sonic wallpaper" it aint!

Partly that Holst and Stravinsky he 'borrowed' ; )

[Philoctetes]

Partly that Holst and Stravinsky he 'borrowed' ; )

Appropriated is probably a better term. Plus with the contextual shift the music is original (Gadamer).

[jowcol]

Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling


About the most originality that any writer can hope to achieve honestly is to steal with good judgment.
Josh Billings

And for the citation of so many authors, 'tis the easiest thing in nature. Find out one of these books with an alphabetical index, and without any farther ceremony, remove it verbatim into your own... there are fools enough to be thus drawn into an opinion of the work; at least, such a flourishing train of attendants will give your book a fashionable air, and recommend it for sale.
Miguel De Cervantes

Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research.
Wilson Mizner

Genius Borrows nobly.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

He invades authors like a monarch; and what would be theft in other poets is only victory in him.
John Dryden

I don't think anybody steals anything; all of us borrow.
B. B. King

Ideas improve. The meaning of words participates in the improvement. Plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it. It embraces an author's phrase, makes use of his expressions, erases a false idea, and replaces it with the right idea.
Guy Debord

If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from many, it's research.
Wilson Mizner


Most writers steal a good thing when they can, and when 'Tis safely got 'Tis worth the winning. The worst of 't is we now and then detect em, they ever dream that we suspect em.
Bryan Waller Proctor

Nothing is new except arrangement.
William J. Durant

Nothing is said which has not been said before.
Terence

Perish those who said our good things before we did.
Donatus

Plagiarists are always suspicious of being stolen from.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Plagiarists at least have the quality of preservation.
Benjamin Disraeli

So much of what I am I got from you. I had no idea how much of it was secondhand.
Peter Townsend

Stealing things is a glorious occupation, particularly in the art world.
Malcolm Mclaren

Taking something from one man and making it worse is plagiarism.
George Moore

The human plagiarism which is most difficult to avoid, for individuals... is the plagiarism of ourselves.
Marcel Proust

[Leon]

Because of this thread I borrowed some soundtracks from a friend who has hundreds and have listened to a bunch.  What I have come to believe, is that while film music is certainly not classical music it is often very well written music for orchestra and other interesting combinations of instruments.

So far I've heard OST by Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Rachel Portman, Georges Delerue, Henry Mancini, Michel Legrand, David Shire, Alan Silvestri, Alex North, Basil Poledouris, Ennio Morricone, Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Patrick Doyle, John Williams - and probably some others.  I've gone through randomly about 75 different film scores over the last week or so.

I doubt any composer writing for film would claim that he is writing classical music, nor would he care.

This music is a genre all it's own and much of it makes for very enjoyable listening.

[jowcol]

Because of this thread I borrowed some soundtracks from a friend who has hundreds and have listened to a bunch.  What I have come to believe, is that while film music is certainly not classical music it is often very well written music for orchestra and other interesting combinations of instruments.

So far I've heard OST by Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, Rachel Portman, Georges Delerue, Henry Mancini, Michel Legrand, David Shire, Alan Silvestri, Alex North, Basil Poledouris, Ennio Morricone, Nino Rota, Bernard Hermann, Patrick Doyle, John Williams - and probably some others.  I've gone through randomly about 75 different film scores over the last week or so.

I doubt any composer writing for film would claim that he is writing classical music, nor would he care.

This music is a genre all it's own and much of it makes for very enjoyable listening.

I'm fond of Goldsmith's Alien soundtrack.  As it turned out, he did not like the way the music was used in the film (a lot was taken from his other scores), so he pushed the release of the OST album to hear it the way he meant it.

From some of the quotes we've seen, the composers had contrasting views of the relative artistic  significance of what they were doing.

[Szykneij]

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't own the Stars Wars soundtrack, but the discussion has prompted me to order this recording:



Because the pieces on this CD are arranged as performance compositions, are those who answered "no" to the original question "Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music? " more inclined to say "yes" to these works? A classically trained orchestra is required to perform the pieces under the direction of a conductor (I don't know of many jazz French horn players or heavy metal bassoonists), and the musical structure is not dependent upon what's happening on the screen but, presumably, developed using classical composition techniques. Even if you don't think it's good classical, is Sony justified in issuing it under the "classical" label?

[karlhenning]

Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.
Lionel Trilling

They're all excellent citations. This one is especially germane, considering Williams's imitations.