Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[James]

I don't get your audio track talk. Movie soundtracks are sold as their own. Have you ever listened to a Star Wars soundtrack?

I wouldn't be worried about that. It's possible in the future the music of John Williams is more popular than Wagner.

If John Williams is not the Wagner of movies, who is?

I already answered your last question. Film is largely a collaborative effort, however the Film's Director is the center of that (the creative end), and if the studio he works for trusts him enough, he has the final say regarding it's audio/visual mix & cut. The bottom line is that the music JW creates is for the audio mix of the film to accompany the visual story (the Director's Vision). He is apart of the film world, and that art. And yes, a soundtrack CD, LP, download etc.. is often up for sale as a piece of film merchandise too .. all kinds of films, with all kinds of music. Just because that is done, doesn't mean one is a legitimate classical composer in a true sense either.

It's possible in the future the music of John Williams is more popular than Wagner.

But never included or as important to the History of Classical music of course.

[jochanaan]

...Film is largely a collaborative effort....m

So is opera and ballet.

But never included or as important to the History of Classical music of course.

None of us can know that yet, not until it happens.  It is possible that in the future, film will be recognized as just as much a lasting and significant art form as opera, ballet, or symphonies etc.  Or not.  Who could have predicted that, say, the operas of Wagner would eclipse the ones of Rimsky-Korsakov despite the latter's abundance of good music?  And before anyone says anything, Rimsky-Korsakov, around the turn of the 20th century, was considered one of the greatest of all composers.  (That shows how tastes and even scholarship change.)

[James]

So is opera and ballet.None of us can know that yet, not until it happens.  It is possible that in the future, film will be recognized as just as much a lasting and significant art form as opera, ballet, or symphonies etc.  Or not.  Who could have predicted that, say, the operas of Wagner would eclipse the ones of Rimsky-Korsakov despite the latter's abundance of good music?  And before anyone says anything, Rimsky-Korsakov, around the turn of the 20th century, was considered one of the greatest of all composers.  (That shows how tastes and even scholarship change.)

LOL. Keep on grasping at straws ...

[jochanaan]

LOL. Keep on grasping at straws ...

Oh, I'm not the one grasping at anything.

[James]

Oh, I'm not the one grasping at anything.

You just keep on telling yourself that.   

[jochanaan]

*stops feeding troll*

[relm1]

I already answered your last question. Film is largely a collaborative effort, however the Film's Director is the center of that (the creative end), and if the studio he works for trusts him enough, he has the final say regarding it's audio/visual mix & cut. The bottom line is that the music JW creates is for the audio mix of the film to accompany the visual story (the Director's Vision). He is apart of the film world, and that art. And yes, a soundtrack CD, LP, download etc.. is often up for sale as a piece of film merchandise too .. all kinds of films, with all kinds of music. Just because that is done, doesn't mean one is a legitimate classical composer in a true sense either.

This isn't entirely true...John Williams does have an opinion and a voice that might differ with the director.  There are few people on earth more experienced than he is now at working in film.  Remember that Spielberg wanted Jaws to have a more horror sound where Williams said that's not what the film is about...its an adventure at sea movie so played more like a pirate score with sea shanties, etc.  But generally, yes, you're right...the composer is hired to execute the director's intent and Williams is exceptionally collaborative in helping execute to that vision (even if the director doesn't quite know it).

A question...what if a composer receives a commission by a soloist and the soloist does not get what they wanted (eg: fires the composer), the composer is still highly regarded, just failed to deliver the work they were expected to do (Berlioz Harold in Italy for example or Ravel's Concerto for the Left Hand).  My point is that these composers are hired to execute someone else's creative intent and expected to deliver on that expectation.  Their skills, imagination, talent, and craft are poured into completing someone else's desire.  The composer might not even like the work or the intent behind it (Shostakovich writing an ode to Stalin or Nazi's for instance) but they are still composers of great repute...perhaps not as substantial in the history books as Wagner and Stravinsky, but still highly regarded and influential.  Composers are very much reliant on fulfilling the intention of the hiring person/institution or audience.  The image of the crazy composer who writes his art regardless of everyone else is just not realistic today.  Sure, composers have a sound and style that should be unique to them but John Williams definitely qualifies there.

To me, John Williams is an exceptionally skilled and talented composer who made his living as a film composer.  History will most likely see him as a very popular and influential composer who mostly wrote for film but also other genre's like ceremonial/occasional music and concert stage.   He is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range).  Shostakovitch wrote more film music than any other genre, but he is remembered as a concert composer who wrote alot of film scores too.  I think the difference comes down more to how posterity regards their legacy than the medium they mostly wrote for.  Was it true that in Bach's time, his reputation was mostly on organ performance than as a composer of serious art music?   Sorry if that is an ignorant question but I ask it sincerely but I understood he was considered trivial in his day and was not lauded till 19th century.

[jochanaan]

...Was it true that in Bach's time, his reputation was mostly on organ performance than as a composer of serious art music?   Sorry if that is an ignorant question but I ask it sincerely but I understood he was considered trivial in his day and was not lauded till 19th century.

No, it was very true.  St. Thomaskirche in Leipzig wanted Telemann to be the church music director but had to "settle" for Bach.  That may be, though, because Bach's reputation was still developing while Telemann's was already well established.  Late in Bach's life, Frederick the Great himself thought very highly of Bach, exclaiming when he heard of his arrival, "Gentlemen, old Bach has come!"

[SimonNZ]

   He is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range). 

See, part of the problem for me is that I haven't noticed that being true at all. And noting how massively popular the Star Wars franchise has been for near forty years, and how widely underappreciated and unknown classical remains, only reinforces my suspicion that the general soundtrack fan doesn't consider themselves a part of the classical listening world, or have any desire to explore. I most certainly haven't seen it at any point in my life with the hundreds of Star Wars fans I've known.

[relm1]

See, part of the problem for me is that I haven't noticed that being true at all. And noting how massively popular the Star Wars franchise has been for near forty years, and how widely underappreciated and unknown classical remains, only reinforces my suspicion that the general soundtrack fan doesn't consider themselves a part of the classical listening world, or have any desire to explore. I most certainly haven't seen it at any point in my life with the hundreds of Star Wars fans I've known.

I can tell you many, many stories of professional performers with major symphonies that are absolutely gobsmacked to perform under Williams because they grew up with his tunes and consider themselves musicians because of it.  I played with an orchestra a week after they played an all Williams concert with him conducting.  They were all like kids in a candy shop saying what a unique experience that was and a true highlight for themselves and the audience.  These same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers so I believed this was very sincere adulation I had not previously seen from them.  The concert sold out in a day which is not common.  I heard similar stories in studios and other orchestras too...he is very highly revered by many professionals because they found their way to music through his music.   Some audiences that never go to classical concerts go to these concerts and hear a symphony for the first time there and do find it something worth exploring further.

[SimonNZ]

Well, okay, its nice if they are delighted to work with him - though that didn't really address anything in my post - and adding "these same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers" kind of detracts from the argument of situating Williams somewhere in the classical zeitgeist.

What are these Williams fans going on to explore? Is it in any way measurable? Because I've read many threads and had many conversations about how people got into classical, and "bridging" soundtracks never enter into it in my experience. I'm almost prepared to say that soundtracks create a false expectation of classical, especially modern classical: that its going to be sweet, catchy-melody-driven, in brief easily digested morsels and requires little effort or repeated exposure - and that conditioning is in fact creating an inevitable frustration.

[Karl Henning]

Well, okay, its nice if they are delighted to work with him - though that didn't really address anything in my post - and adding "these same musicians tend to be slightly dismissive of modern composers" kind of detracts from the argument of situating Williams somewhere in the classical zeitgeist.

He is said to be a very nice man, and I do not at all doubt it.

I agree with your latter point.  "You've written something we can hum! You are a great composer!"

[James]

But generally, yes, you're right...the composer is hired to execute the director's intent and Williams is exceptionally collaborative in helping execute to that vision (even if the director doesn't quite know it).

And a lot of director's won't tolerate too much bickering/conflict from a composer. It is why some of the best of them don't even bother hiring a composer and use source music instead, or even write/ad lib their own to support the visual story they got. And ultimately what is created/used musically is apart of a grander audio mix.

A question...what if a composer receives a commission by a soloist and the soloist does not get what they wanted.

They all aren't winners, and there is a difference here in it's genesis/use though. And if we're talking at the highest levels of music making/composition, a international soloist of reputation within the world of classical music usually turns to a composer of contemporary classical music who has earned their place within this context, having a voice earned within classical composition, not film. Perhaps great soloists have turned to JW for a concerto and the results have been mediocre?

Sure, composers have a sound and style that should be unique to them but John Williams definitely qualifies there.

Outside of the films and film world that gave him notoriety/popularity, not really. He's part of the film world, not the classical one. On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music. He has been great for Hollywood, Spielberg & Lucas they may say, but as a composer of classical compositions, operas or ballets? Nah. If anything, they'll hear where he is pulling his stuff from and bitch and moan about that.

He is also a "bridging" composer introducing many people to classical music through his film scores or ceremonial pieces (myself for instance and many people of my age range).

I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.

[relm1]

And a lot of director's won't tolerate too much bickering/conflict from a composer. It is why some of the best of them don't even bother hiring a composer and use source music instead, or even write/ad lib their own to support the visual story they got. And ultimately what is created/used musically is apart of a grander audio mix.

Who said it's bickering/conflict?  I am talking about a composer who is exceptionally accomplished giving an opinion that would be foolish to ignore.  Rarely there is the Kubrick who is so complete a visionary that only classical giants could score their pictures, but most of the time are ego maniacal divas who think because they have garage band that they are musicians.  These are probably the directors who tell an actor where and when to take a breath when delivering a line even if it's Deniro.

They all aren't winners, and there is a difference here in it's genesis/use though. And if we're talking at the highest levels of music making/composition, a international soloist of reputation within the world of classical music usually turns to a composer of contemporary classical music who has earned their place within this context, having a voice earned within classical composition, not film. Perhaps great soloists have turned to JW for a concerto and the results have been mediocre?

Fair point but don't forget you are describing the reputation and popular opinion here which Williams has earned.  We classical music lovers are the fringe connoisseurs.  You also are using a straw man logical fallacy in support of your argument.  "having a voice earned within classical composition, not film" forgets that many great classical composers where dismissed in their day by the bourgeois.

Outside of the films and film world that gave him notoriety/popularity, not really. He's part of the film world, not the classical one. On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music. He has been great for Hollywood, Spielberg & Lucas they may say, but as a composer of classical compositions, operas or ballets? Nah. If anything, they'll hear where he is pulling his stuff from and bitch and moan about that.

Fair point.  True, he is a big part of some circles of film music.  He is also reviled by other circles since some see him as "old school and too classical rather than in touch with the trends". 

Regarding "On top of this, few, if any major contemporary classical composers would ever wax poetically about JW as a serious composer of highly distinctive art/classical music.", how do you define "major contemporary classical composers"?  I know some Pulitzer prize winning composers who rave about him and his influence on them.  Also, don't disregard that a composer in their youth might admire a composer they later reject because they have gained their own distinctiveness.  Most composers imitate their idols when they are learning their skills but hopefully their individuality emerges.  Name a composer where this was not the case.   

I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.

This is a limited view of classical music that it is not something that can speak to a broad contemporary audience and I fundamentally disagree with you since this is my profession.  I believe new music still has something relevant to say.  It might not be immediately transparent but like Stravinsky said, "music more than any other art form rewards effort".   I will also add that a connoisseur has evolved taste that the general population might lack.  This doesn't mean it is trivial, just that it speaks to a more limited audience.   Mcdonalds outsells fancy beef restaurants but a connoisseur will know the difference.  Most people won't care.

[relm1]

I doubt that seriously. And if people who don't know a thing about classical music listen to his soundtrack albums, put out by the company, thinking that it is representative of what classical music is about, they'll be sadly mistaken and gravely misinformed.

Film Concerts Live notes that 75 percent of its audience never had seen a live orchestra.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/magazine-feature/6843746/jurassic-park-orchestral-concert-treatment-theaters

[Monsieur Croche]

Listens to the sound tracks from Star Wars, thinks they're classical music.

[vandermolen]

I was listening to BBC Radio 3 in the car this morning and was enjoying a piece of music which was unknown to me. At one point it occurred to me that it sounded a bit like film music. Anyway, it turned out to be from 'Attack of the Clones'. It certainly sounded like a classical work and I greatly enjoyed it. Mind you, the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi' seems to have been filched from the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges'.

[Cato]

I was listening to BBC Radio 3 in the car this morning and was enjoying a piece of music which was unknown to me. At one point it occurred to me that it sounded a bit like film music. Anyway, it turned out to be from 'Attack of the Clones'. It certainly sounded like a classical work and I greatly enjoyed it. Mind you, the 'Parade of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi' seems to have been filched from the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges'.

This reminded me of a famous story:

On receiving an Academy Award in 1955 for The High and the Mighty, Dimitri Tiomkin began his acceptance speech by saying "I would like to thank Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Strauss, Rimsky-Korsakov." That the audience greeted this as a joke and roared with laughter accordingly is not surprising, for Tiomkin, his pronounced Russian accent untouched by years in America, enjoyed a reputation as a flamboyant, larger-than-life character. Nor is it surprising that Tiomkin should protest that he was, in fact, deadly serious, for though he was the consummate Hollywood professional, his roots, like so many Hollywood composers of his generation, belonged in the European classical tradition.

[kishnevi]

May I point out that Williams's film scores are performed by orchestras?

Which all by itself means it is far closer to classical music than 99% of what is on the radio these days


And if it gets people to explore "real" classical music, why not?

[SimonNZ]

May I point out that Williams's film scores are performed by orchestras?

Which all by itself means it is far closer to classical music than 99% of what is on the radio these days


And if it gets people to explore "real" classical music, why not?

Just a few posts up on this page I suggested that based on my conversations, on anecdotes and on my reading on sites like this I felt that the idea of soundtracks as a gateway to classical was a myth. I contrasted the massive forty-year popularity of Star Wars with the still niche field of classical. I also said that soundtracks create a false and frustrating expectation of classical which in fact has the opposite effect. You disagree? What fuels this belief?