Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[karlhenning]

Excellent points, Bill.

My marginalia here will be a quote from (I think) Aristotle:  Excellence is not an act, but a habit.

Your point on the value of the composer's intent is perfectly valid — Stravinsky had entirely different intents with the Circus Polka for a Young Elephant than he had with Oedipus Rex.  That point, though, seems trumped by the matter of compositional mastery.  That mastery will not be any one act, it will not materialize out of a composer's intent for this or that project.  The readiness is all;  and that mastery has either been established by prior habit, or it ain't there.

[karlhenning]

Oh, and one more point.  It is nice when music that was written originally for a movie can be enjoyed without the visual component, but it is not necessary for that to be the goal of the composer.

I consider that point to be contained within my discussion of the differences between writing a ballet and scoring a film.

There is (at least generally) a difference, too, in that music in film often works best, the less it draws attention to itself (one obvious respect in which large stretches of film music fail in concert).  Where music in ballet is a core component of the genre.

[Bogey]

Excellent points, Bill.

My marginalia here will be a quote from (I think) Aristotle:  Excellence is not an act, but a habit.

Your point on the value of the composer's intent is perfectly valid — Stravinsky had entirely different intents with the Circus Polka for a Young Elephant than he had with Oedipus Rex.  That point, though, seems trumped by the matter of compositional mastery.  That mastery will not be any one act, it will not materialize out of a composer's intent for this or that project.  The readiness is all;  and that mastery has either been established by prior habit, or it ain't there.[/color]

Ah.  That is why some of my film scores trump pieces on my classical shelf.   Well put.

[Franco]

Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 

The score is very incidental to my enjoyment and can enhance the experience, but, more often than not, it is too busy and adds nothing but a distraction to the film - kind of like a aural mosquito.

So, I guess if the evidence of one person who loves Classical music, but has no affection for film scores counts as proof of anything, it is that, at least for this person, film scores have no connection to Classical music and have more in common with other kinds of Popular music.

[71 dB]

So what does it matter what others think?

It seems to matter a lot to some people what I think since they try so hard to prove me wrong. Frankly, I don't understand why. Most of the time I don't react to karl's remarks as it would be pointless waste of time. I let him have his taste.

When you listen, its YOUR ears that listen, not Dana's, Karl's or my own.

Yes. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 

The score is very incidental to my enjoyment and can enhance the experience, but, more often than not, it is too busy and adds nothing but a distraction to the film - kind of like a aural mosquito.

So, I guess if the evidence of one person who loves Classical music, but has no affection for film scores counts as proof of anything, it is that, at least for this person, film scores have no connection to Classical music and have more in common with other kinds of Popular music.

I could have written this myself... (except I don't even have 10, nor even 1...)

[jowcol]

[size=3 size]

There is (at least generally) a difference, too, in that music in film often works best, the less it draws attention to itself (one obvious respect in which large stretches of film music fail in concert).  Where music in ballet is a core component of the genre.

This is a REALLY good point.  (And could also apply to other types of incidental music).  Although I would hazard that some choreographers would feel that music plays a supporting role in ballet.   I'm sure composers tend to feel differently. 

One of the scores/soundtracks I have problems with is the Lord of the Rings movies.  The way the sound is mixed, the score simply drowns out some of the dialog, and repeatedly calls attention to itself. 

One also needs to admire when a director knows when NOT to use music , and when the ambient sound does a better job for framing the mood.  The spacewalk scenes in 2001 were much more intense without music, but the hissing of air sounding instead.

I'd also toss out the notion that film scores are a great opportunity to apply the Leitmotiv.

[jowcol]

Reading this thread I have realized that I own no film music CDs, other than some soundtracks that have songs I like, e.g. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid - and probably less than ten of those.  This is in a collection of about 5,000 CDs.

Film scores without the movie are not interesting to me, in fact, movies are hardly interesting to me to begin with, and I sure don't go to see a movie for the music - I've seen no commercial releases  this year, and when I do see a movie it is on DVD, never in the theater. 

One interesting case in the film score for Jerry Goldsmith's Alien. As it turns out, much of the music he wrote for the movie was not used by the director (who substituted some of Goldsmith's other music, and even a snippet of Hanson for some of the original score.)  There have been multiple versions of the "sound track" released, with different degrees of fidelity to Goldsmith's intentions. 

I must admit I don't like even the whole Goldsmith score as a stand alone work (I edited it for my mp3 player), but some of the more lyrical parts of the score I adore, and it really pulled me into that movie.  I HAD to buy the score after seeing the movie.  There have been some other cases for me, but I'll also confess it's not a large part of my collection. 

[drogulus]

[/font]
Eisenstein didn't have to. Prokofiev was legendary for creating music of the exact length required.  Eisenstein would tell him x frames, and the next morning, Prokofiev brought in the music required.  Hah! ; )

     That's what film composers are supposed to do, and Herrman was a master at just that.

   

It is a special task, and to do it well is a fine accomplishment.  My point (one of 'em, anyway) is that someone who furnishes great film scores is certainly possessed of a fine talent.  This talent may or may not overlap with mastery of the art of composition.

     I agree with you here. Most film music can't make it in a concert hall. I'm concerned with a small subset that does work there. I'm saying that success in the concert hall answers the question for me, not that I want to flood concert halls with film music. I want film music to stay put because it doesn't work elsewhere, and not because it originated in a film score, even though that is often why it doesn't work.

One also needs to admire when a director knows when NOT to use music , and when the ambient sound does a better job for framing the mood.  The spacewalk scenes in 2001 were much more intense without music, but the hissing of air sounding instead.

     I agree (again!).

     And then there's The Birds.


     

      It's not realistic ambient sound, and it's not exactly music, either.

[Teresa]

Excellent points everyone both pro and con.  However I am curious if those who say they own no film music are aware that Alexander Nevsky and Lt. Kiji are film scores by Prokofiev.  I wonder how they could build a classical collection without film music by Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Walton, Copland and others.  I find those statements very curious.

IMHO orchestral film music is a branch of classical music not much different than opera or ballet.  Some of my favorite film composers are Shostakovich and Prokofiev but I also love John Williams, Bernard Herrmann and Miklos Rozsa. 

I think film music works best when arranged into orchestral suites, for example John Williams' "Close Encounters of the Third Kind Suite" at just over 12 minutes is one of my favorite compositions of the 20th century. 

[Catison]

I think film music works best when arranged into orchestral suites, for example John Williams' "Close Encounters of the Third Kind Suite" at just over 12 minutes is one of my favorite compositions of the 20th century.

Depends on the context.  Obviously, the Close Encounters Suite isn't going to work well for the movie.  For the concert hall, it is preferable.  Some people like one version, some the other.

[DavidRoss]

I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

[Benji]

I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

It's great to see you back David. 

...but I totally disagree

[Bogey]

Yesterday I finally voted No, since there was not an "intent" option.  However, this evening I forgot what I chose (really) so removed my vote, put in my No in again and found that the numbers lined up....

[Benji]

Here's some food for thought, from the liner notes for the Abbado disc of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky.

"Prokofiev's work as a film composer belongs to his Soviet period. It was closely tied up with the emergence of the cinema in Russia as a new experimental medium capable of offering as much scope to the creative innoveator as the polictical indoctrinator. For Prokofiev, the value of film music as a form of theatrical expression was comparable with that of opera and ballet. This attitude was not uncommon among his friends and contemporaties. "Cinema music, " Shostakovich held, "is often regarded as a mere illustration supplementary to the screen. In my opinion it should be treated as an integral part of an artistic whole" (Literaturnaya Gazeta, 10 April 1939). Such a viewpoint was enthusiastically endorsed by Prokofiev, who, in an article on the film music for Alexander Nevsky, further observed that the "cinema is a young and very modern art that offers new and facinating possibilities to the composer. These possibilities must be fully utilised. Composers ought to make a study of them, instead of merely writing the music and then leaving it to the mercy of the film people. Even the most skilled sound technician cannot possibly handle the music as well as the composer himself..."."

Ates Orga, 1980.

I don't know if anyone can source translations of the articles quoted?

Of course, Prokofiev wrote that when cinema with sound was new though, as he seemed to hope, plenty of composers have taken it upon themselves to study the art of writing music for the medium, and there are a few who have the clout to deal hands on with the rest of the creative forces to produce a work that really is an "artistic whole"; in a collaboration that is surely the equal of any ballet or opera forged by multiple creative minds.

[jochanaan]

I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.  Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action and Jen-you-whine classical musique seems much vaster than the gulf between classical music and good jazz.  I mean, pole dancing at a strip club has some essential similarities to classical ballet...but are they really quite the same?

As a player, I can say that there is no essential difference in playing them.  They have the same kinds of challenges and rewards I find in playing opera or ballet accompaniments.  (I've never actually played for a movie soundtrack, but I wouldn't be averse.  Of course, at this point in my musical career, I'd take any job that pays! )  And don't dismiss John Williams' music until you've tried to play it!  It's not easy by any standards.

[Bogey]

As a player, I can say that there is no essential difference in playing them.  They have the same kinds of challenges and rewards I find in playing opera or ballet accompaniments.  (I've never actually played for a movie soundtrack, but I wouldn't be averse.  Of course, at this point in my musical career, I'd take any job that pays! )  And don't dismiss John Williams' music until you've tried to play it!  It's not easy by any standards.

I could easily see you being hired by Danny Elfman, John.  He would be lucky to have you....and aren't you glad the cold snap is over here in CO?

[71 dB]

I'm shocked to see "yes" votes.

You get shocked too easily.

Though I realize there's an essential similarity of type between movie scores and incidental theatre music, the gulf between Williams's pumped-up accents for on-screen action. 

John Williams (and other movie composers for that matter) compose diverse music for different kind of scenes in movies. Do you hear pumped-up accents in Yoda's Theme?

[karlhenning]

I could easily see you being hired by Danny Elfman, John.  He would be lucky to have you....

Very much enjoyed Elfman's score to Dick Tracy. But I shouldn't call it classical music.

[karlhenning]

It's great to see you back David. 

...but I totally disagree

You're a great group of folks!  We get on so well, yet feel no obligation to agree on all points.