Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[Florestan]

I've submitted an orchestral score to a call.  If my scoring is bad, they will reject my score in favor of a composer who knows how to write for the instruments.

Are you sure this is always the case? They might accept you instead the better orchestrator if you had some connections.

[Karl Henning]

Not sure of the point.

That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

When McCartney did his Liverpool Oratorio project, there was a team of actual composers engaged to overcome his technical shortcomings;  but those shortcomings are of no consequence, because of the name McCartney.

[Karl Henning]

Are you sure this is always the case? They might accept you instead the better orchestrator if you had some connections.

That is possible.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I say this as a lover of light music and operetta (for example), which are often looked down upon.

I have often said I'd rather listen to The Mikado than Parsifal.

(Of course, these days you can't even produce The Mikado, or for that matter Madame Butterfly, without someone screaming about anti-Oriental stereotyping. I'm not kidding:
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/30/yellowface-bait-and-switch-with-madama-butterfly-in-fargo/
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/09/15/putting-on-yellowface-for-the-holidays-with-gilbert-sullivan-nyu/

One company in New York had to cancel The Mikado because of complaints. I'm not quite sure the complaints were that the company put on the operetta in the first place or that they didn't use Orientals in the cast.)

Sorry for the digression. I think the matter deserves its own thread.

[Monsieur Croche]

You both make it sound as if being a 'film composer' is a 'lesser' composer in some way and that being a traditional 'classical' composer is superior in some way. Do you believe this?

Only if you are assessing the two very different genres with the same set of criteria and with the same set of expectations -- in which case, yeah, a lot of film music does not hold up well against.

If instead you would assess it as film music, which about every merchant selling recordings on the planet [evidently there are some exceptions, lol. ADD - that only demonstrates the cluelessness of the owners and staff of some record shops], classical musicians, composers of both classical and film, and the better known and esteemed symphonic organizations programming already do, then it is not lesser to anything because it is being considered and assessed for what it is, and not what it isn't.

About those posts which cite a program by the local symphony programming classical and film scores side by side, I can well-guess those symphonies are the more struggling, not lesser, but struggling organizations, with far shorter seasons and a far smaller budget than the better known orchestras; these 'less major' local orchestras have far less available with which to pay royalties enabling them to program more contemporary classical works.

The cost of royalties to perform many a film score is often proportionately as high, and often even higher, than it costs to program a full-length piece by John Adams, but the greater certainty that a film score will get in many who do not regularly attend, and thinking it will make for a greater chance to sell out the house is the calculated chance they will take to make ends meet. Those organizations which are the better known 'major' orchestras of the world have no need to take such measures as far as programming, yet also both accommodate the audience for the more popular music and boost their budgets by programming it on special single concert events, or during their 'second shift' and generally more 'pops' summer season.

This is straight-ahead business, not some tidal shift within the classical community suddenly deciding that film scores are 'classical' or 'art music.'

[relm1]

I feel I have said what I meant to and will leave off now as we are engaged in a dialog of the deaf.

Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting...relax, I know you are speaking generally as I was.   

Themed concerts like ''Heroes'' are already a clue there is a marketing force at work to bring more bums into the seats. Programming the Williams at the end of the program [at least that is the most likely running order, and 'how did he know that?] is another calculated strategy to pull new bums into the seats to cultivate a younger audience, or to make up for already failing numbers of bums in the seats in general.

Spend any time dealing with arts management and there is GREAT interest in marketing programs and it is a balancing act between arts and organizational leadership.  This is the reality we live in.  If they don't care about the organizational aspects, they are either living off subsidies with increasingly competitive pressure or will face hard decisions ahead to maintain viability....uh hum...video game music concerts.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting.

Don't worry, it didn't hurt Beethoven.

[Karl Henning]

We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.

[Monsieur Croche]

I have often said I'd rather listen to The Mikado than Parsifal.

(Of course, these days you can't even produce The Mikado, or for that matter Madame Butterfly, without someone screaming about anti-Oriental stereotyping. I'm not kidding:
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/10/30/yellowface-bait-and-switch-with-madama-butterfly-in-fargo/
http://www.hesherman.com/2015/09/15/putting-on-yellowface-for-the-holidays-with-gilbert-sullivan-nyu/

One company in New York had to cancel The Mikado because of complaints. I'm not quite sure the complaints were that the company put on the operetta in the first place or that they didn't use Orientals in the cast.)

Sorry for the digression. I think the matter deserves its own thread.

HEAR, HEAR.
Add egregious crimes against the arts of a culture to the long list of victims of Political Correctness that has already run to insanely ridiculous extremes. We all already know any kind of extremism is pretty fookin' awful... now we all have to recognize and revolt against the extremism in our own nations, whatever their stripe.

[Monsieur Croche]

We do all agree that programming film-score music on symphony orchestra concerts is a marketing triumph.

...Pyrrhic victory though that is, 'a triumph, nonetheless.' 

[mc ukrneal]

That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?

[Karl Henning]

But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?

I'd say it depends on how fundamental the flaw is.

[mc ukrneal]

I'd say it depends on how fundamental the flaw is.

That doesn't help much either, but perhaps this is the wrong thread to have the conversation...it's a bit loaded, if you know what I mean...

[Karl Henning]

That doesn't help much either, but perhaps this is the wrong thread to have the conversation...it's a bit loaded, if you know what I mean...

I think I do 

[Monsieur Croche]

Are you calling me deaf?  I take offense since I am a musician and calling a musician deaf is very insulting...relax, I know you are speaking generally as I was.   

Spend any time dealing with arts management and there is GREAT interest in marketing programs and it is a balancing act between arts and organizational leadership.  This is the reality we live in.  If they don't care about the organizational aspects, they are either living off subsidies with increasingly competitive pressure or will face hard decisions ahead to maintain viability....uh hum...video game music concerts.

A-yep. Already happening. I seriously doubt that will ever change the perception of musicians or composers that film and video game music is classical, while those genres are what they are.

[Monsieur Croche]

But that doesn't tell me much. An aspect can be inferior and the person can still be a great composer, right? Or would you disagree with that?

The composers who are generally considered 'the greatest' do not usually prompt citations of a fair to long list of weaknesses in their works -- that is the measure no matter the genre, too. Some 'great' composers are notably uneven in the quality of their overall output [Shostakovich, Milhaud, Beethoven, even.]

Its that 'as close to perfection, if you changed, added, or removed any tiny bit of it, it would be less' criterion. I.e. pretty damned near flawless is the across the board high standard.

[Monsieur Croche]

That there are aspects of the craft of composition, and the "mechanics" of scores, whereby some composers will indeed be considered inferior.

When McCartney did his Liverpool Oratorio project, there was a team of actual composers engaged to overcome his technical shortcomings;  but those shortcomings are of no consequence, because of the name McCartney.

I beg to differ.

Other than a few die-hard McCartney fans who might have written reviews, attended the [few] concert performances and bought the recording, that piece was near to universally panned.

[Brahmsian]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1

[relm1]

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/John-T.-Williams/Composer/13089-1

If you had shared this link with us on page 1, you would have saved 42 pages of headache! 

[Brahmsian]

If you had shared this link with us on page 1, you would have saved 42 pages of headache!