Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[Rinaldo]

The main theme is definitely 'in the manner of' Strauss, esp Don Juan (with the flatted 7ths by way of Korngold, he loved those) but of course rounded off into neat little periods, which Strauss would never have done as a regular four-bar rhythm would have bored him, and most likely us, to death.

Pastichist is a good word, flexible is another one. Williams had to tailor his music to what the director wanted / the movie needed. And that's where his undeniable craft shines the most, IMO. His segues and changes of pace and tone are mostly flawless and fit the images and cuts perfectly (not in the prequel trilogy, though, as the soundtrack was chopped and edited all over the place by Lucas / Ben Burtt). Anyway, that's where those 'neat little periods' come from - as an (orchestral) movie composer, you're confined in a way classical composers never have to bother with.

This is my favourite piece of Williams' Star Wars music (and also my favourite scene of the saga):

https://www.youtube.com/v/pE1nL4xFOfM

It's amazing to realize the music came afterwards. How the composer underscores the tension, then ramps it up with the wider shot and tracks Luke's anger, then encompasses the tragedy of it all, then switches gears as Vader falls and finally exhales along with Luke's realization he's becoming his father.. superior craftsmanship.

[Karl Henning]

Pastichist is a good word, flexible is another one. Williams had to tailor his music to what the director wanted / the movie needed. And that's where his undeniable craft shines the most, IMO.

I should say, that is essentially the craft.  You are reinforcing a point which I have made various times ere now:  if we want to handicap the result with the considerations that the composer exercises control over neither the overall project (which is different from, not absolutely all, but let us say a solid majority of opera) nor over the timeframe of his doing the work, then I think that is fair and reasonable;  but it also means that comparing these film scores to classical music is something of a grapefruit-to-tangelos affair.

And, yes, my attitude would probably be different if I had heard any concert work by Williams which doesn't niff a bit even on ice.  Which is to say, even when he has the complete control which is the composer's preference, the result does not shine.

[Karl Henning]

You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts

[Karl Henning]

You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts

If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8

[mc ukrneal]

You make the call, Neal:

Stravinsky:

https://www.youtube.com/v/LhBK9jUH_9k

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/iISxAhvv3ts

That depends on how you think this one stacks up...
https://www.youtube.com/v/HsTBd5ps5PU
Sure, they are quite similar, but I suspect if we thought a bit more, we could come up with even more examples like Holst's Saturn. it is not so uncommon an idea I think.

[relm1]

If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8

Hmmm, my take on these is that Holst established an identifiable vocabulary that became synonymous with space opera.  A film composers job is to quickly get an emotional identity for a the drama in a way that fits the audiences expectation while also providing tools for the film maker to create tension/drama/romance/mood/setting/climax/adventure,etc.  In Holst, we have a lot of tools to dig into.  Polychords, flat sixth, march ostinatos, evocative otherworldly colors such as the wordless chorus, harps + celestas, organ pedals, etc., etc.  It is a text book of writing in this genre and pretty much orchestration because of how much variety is contained within. 

I'll grant an imperial march ostinato has a similar feel to Holst but this goes back to my point that the similarities are superficial.  The harmonic projects in Imperial March are very interesting and original.  If you want to hear derivative, I'll send you some of my own music that is indebted to John Williams's style.  It is original, but uses the tools he incorporated, learned, and mastered.  Similarly, he picked up these tools from those who influenced him (plus the lead from his film director). 

Here is a question - does John Williams even like the music he composed for Star Wars?  My point, how much of John Williams is the score we know and will probably be his lasting legacy given its 40 year history and cultural impact?  Would he have written this music differently if it has been a different director?  So the point is how much of what we hear and blame is his pastiche is actually the direction he is given and hired to fulfill?

[mc ukrneal]

If you just listen to the first half-minute of each in immediate succession . . . note that even the key center is adopted directly.

A little less obviously egregious . . . Here, of course, the older piece begins softly, because it has time for a crescendo, where for Williams' purposes it needs to start out loud.

Note, again, he does not trouble to alter the key (rightly trusting in Holst's acumen).

Holst:

https://www.youtube.com/v/L0bcRCCg01I

Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/v/-bzWSJG93P8

Here is the classic claim against him. But I have never been convinced. The meter is totally different. 5/4 time is somewhat unique and is part of what created the undulation and drive in Mars. That aspect is completely lacking in the Imperial March. And this is a true march, with a different rhythm. If you were to say this influenced, I could live with that, but I don't see it being a derivative. Certainly the theme itself is not taken from Mars.

Interestingly, someone earlier wrote:

b) The Darth Vader theme IMO is borrowed from Shostakovich Symphony 1, 2nd mvmt.

So there is agreement that this was 'borrowed', but not agreement on what it was borrowed from (even if I think this one a little far afield myself).

So the real question is to what extent does 'borrowing' become unoriginal? Godowsky wrote a whole piece where he 'copied' and then altered all of Chopin's Etudes - how does that fit into this conversation? How is Godowsky different from Williams in this respect (or are they different)?

[Karl Henning]

Here is the classic claim against him. But I have never been convinced. The meter is totally different. 5/4 time is somewhat unique and is part of what created the undulation and drive in Mars. That aspect is completely lacking in the Imperial March. And this is a true march, with a different rhythm. If you were to say this influenced, I could live with that, but I don't see it being a derivative. Certainly the theme itself is not taken from Mars.

Your points are all sound. My take is that Williams took the Mars ostinato as background material; I do think that element is fairly bald pilfering.  I suppose there is room to argue whether this is noxious plagiarism, or artistic adoption.  I suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me 

That depends on how you think this one stacks up...
https://www.youtube.com/v/HsTBd5ps5PU
Sure, they are quite similar, but I suspect if we thought a bit more, we could come up with even more examples like Holst's Saturn. it is not so uncommon an idea I think.

But you hear how the harmony and tempo are completely different in the Holst here, and how Williams has taken the very chords and the very tempo straight from Stravinsky's score.  If I had done such a thing, Neal, I should be ashamed to earn any royalties on a piece which so obviously belongs to another composer.

These were two examples which remain fresh in my mind.  I had many more back when I first saw the three original movies in the cinema;  but, to another point of yours, it is not worth my time to pore through the Williams scores to point out more of the egregious borrowings.  If these two examples strike you as merely fair play, we could not disagree more strongly, but I won't bore you with further repetition.

[Ken B]

So there is agreement that this was 'borrowed', but not agreement on what it was borrowed from

Can't I borrow Star Wars from different libraries?



(Actually I think this is a very good point. I hear similarities and echoes in movie scores scores all the time. The Twilight Zone theme is in Der Mond by Orff.)

(I even heard some squirrelly piece with West Side Story influences!!  )

[Karl Henning]

. . . I suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me 

And I wonder how many here would defend the artistic integrity of my methods.

[jochanaan]

Absolutely a matter of my opinion, and maybe no one else will agree with me . . . but (tangentially) an example where I feel Williams did work which is 75% excellent.

The big unison horn tune in Indiana J. and the Temple of Doom:  the first three phrases are strong, beautiful, rich in character, great contour.  And the fourth phrase is, meh.  And meh is a heckuva way to end, because that modulates all that came before.

I know, I know:  everyone else loves it.  Chalk it up to my personal musical eccentricity.

Oh, who listens to the last phrase anymore?

[Karl Henning]

Oh, who listens to the last phrase anymore?

Well, my wife upbraids me for actually listening to the words in pop songs, too . . . .

[jochanaan]

Well, my wife upbraids me for actually listening to the words in pop songs, too . . . .

I had forgotten that the Tatooine scene borrowed that directly from Stravinsky's riotous score. I agree, it would have been polite of Mr. Williams to acknowledge this.  And maybe he has acknowledged it somewhere.

Actually, I just thought of another way to determine whether it is "classical" music: Ask the members of the London Symphony Orchestra, who played the original soundtrack.

[North Star]

Actually, I just thought of another way to determine whether it is "classical" music: Ask the members of the London Symphony Orchestra, who played the original soundtrack.

And perhaps we should also ask them what they define as "classical music". Surely being played by a symphony orchestra can't be the definition alone.

[Sergeant Rock]

I suppose I can put the matter to the legal test, by turnabout:  making just such an artistic adoption of Williams material, keeping the key and modfiying the scoring, perhaps the meter, and seeing whether his representatives seek a judgment against me 

Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

I don't know, but I expect not.  Is the Holst P.D.?  Certainly Le sacre was unprotected by copyright in the West until Stravinsky (for that reason) prepared a 1947 revision.

[North Star]

Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

The closest to this kind of thing that I can think of is Eric Carmen and Rachmaninoff estate, they reached an agreement over the royalties of All by Myself and Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, based partly on Rakh's PC2 and Symphony 2, respectively. Carmen thought they were in public domain.

[ritter]

Legal action occurs frequently in the pop realm but I can't think of a single instance where classical composers (and here I include Williams) have sued one another for plagiarism. Has there been? Specifically, has Williams been sued?

Sarge

Well, there's Stravinsky's quotation in Pétrouchka of Dranem's "La Jambe en bois". Igor Feodorovich apparently thought that it was an old popular song, was sued, and was sentenced from then on to pay a good chunk (5% IIRC) of any royalties from his ballet to the song's composer (much to Stravinsky's chagrin, evidently)...

https://www.youtube.com/v/mSE6Aop14WU
Dranem (Charles Armand Ménard) wouldn't qualify as a classical composer (just as IMHO John Williams would either  ), but Stravinsky probably does  ...

[Sergeant Rock]

The closest to this kind of thing that I can think of is Eric Carmen and Rachmaninoff estate, they reached an agreement over the royalties of All by Myself and Never Gonna Fall in Love Again, based partly on Rakh's PC2 and Symphony 2, respectively. Carmen thought they were in public domain.

Well, there's Stravinsky's quotation in Pétrouchka of Dranem's "La Jambe en bois". Igor Feodorovich apparently thought that it was an old popular song, was sued, and was sentenced from then on to pay a good chunk (5% IIRC) of any royalties from his ballet to the song's composer (much to Stravinsky's chagrin, evidently)...

The examples are pop vs classical. Still no instances of classical composers going to court against each other for plagiarism. In that case, I think Karl can safely steal Williams' thefts 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

(* proceeds to hatch evil musical plots *)