Music written in "inappropriate" keys ...

[Scarpia]

Well, this thread seems to have morphed from its original title into some kind of Brahms imagery discussion 

Some earlier posts gave examples of sad or gloomy music written in major keys.
Does anyone have any examples of happy music written in minor keys, especially traditionally tragic ones such as G minor?

Well, I don't find anything sad or gloomy in the finale of Mozart's great symphony in g-minor.  The minor tonality gives it a certain edge, but I find it to be exuberant music.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream overture is written in E minor. I doubt anyone would call it sad or gloomy. But the real question is, what is the effect of casting this active and sprightly music in a minor key?

[karlhenning]

Nice!

[Opus106]

Does anyone have any examples of happy music written in minor keys, especially traditionally tragic ones such as G minor?

No one answered my question, and I'm not going to download a 20-MB PDF file just to look at the first bar, so I'm just go ahead and say that the last movement of Beethoven's 9th begins in a minor key.

[karlhenning]

But that beginning of the last movement, isn't 'happy', is it?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well, I don't find anything sad or gloomy in the finale of Mozart's great symphony in g-minor.  The minor tonality gives it a certain edge, but I find it to be exuberant music.

There is certainly an edge all right since it is fully in the style of the Sturm and Drang. Instead of sad or gloomy it sounds defiant.

The Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream overture is written in E minor. I doubt anyone would call it sad or gloomy. But the real question is, what is the effect of casting this active and sprightly music in a minor key?

Speaking of E minor, the key of Dvorak's final symphony, no one would ever call it sad or gloomy either, a bit nostalgic perhaps.

[Opus106]

But that beginning of the last movement, isn't 'happy', is it?

Are we (Is Alkan, to be precise) taking into consideration the Happiness Quotient of every instant of the music or the "overall" feeling it delivers? I'm sure there are some 'happy' moments in the middle of a sad-sounding work that begins in sombre fashion in a happy major key.

To answer your question, yes, the movement begins with an explosion, and not a 'happy' one at that. But beyond that it's all Seid umschlungen, Millionen! .

[Scarpia]

There is certainly an edge all right since it is fully in the style of the Sturm and Drang. Instead of sad or gloomy it sounds defiant.

Defiant may be appropriate, but I don't see the symphony as "Sturm und Drang" per se.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Defiant may be appropriate, but I don't see the symphony as "Sturm und Drang" per se.

Not even the modulating bridge of the last movement?

[Scarpia]

Are we (Is Alkan, to be precise) taking into consideration the Happiness Quotient of every instant of the music or the "overall" feeling it delivers? I'm sure there are some 'happy' moments in the middle of a sad-sounding work that begins in sombre fashion in a happy major key.

To answer your question, yes, the movement begins with an explosion, and not a 'happy' one at that. But beyond that it's all Seid umschlungen, Millionen! .

The opening of Beethoven 9 finale is an introductory passage which is deliberately unrelated to the "happy" music that follows.  The fact that this passage is in minor key is not related to the argument because it does not contribute "happy" mood, except as a contrasting, ominous, gloomy section.

[Gurn Blanston]

No one answered my question, and I'm not going to download a 20-MB PDF file just to look at the first bar, so I'm just go ahead and say that the last movement of Beethoven's 9th begins in a minor key.

Actually, the issue of "key" isn't resolved in the opening, only many bars down the road. The "ominous representation of chaos" as it has been called, is essentially a I & V 'open' chord. Without a III (or II or IV) in there, there is little you can tell about it. Although in fact it does become a minor eventually...

[Chaszz]

The Mendelssohn overture does begin with a theme in E minor. This is soon superseded by a joyous theme in E major, and eventually by the climactic theme in B major. The development thereafter is as one would expect back and forth using material from these contrasting themes. There's at least as much major as minor in the movement, if not more. E minor just happens to open it.

As for Mozart's G minor symphony, the first movement has always seemed to me a tragic piece, perhaps bearing a premonition of his coming early death. I can't think of another of his symphonies with such a tragic first movement main theme. His late piano concerto No. 24, K. 401  in C minor, has a similar tragic first movement.

Interestingly, Brahms, when writing his Third Symphony, had no reference to any of these works.

[jochanaan]

...To answer your question, yes, the movement begins with an explosion, and not a 'happy' one at that. But beyond that it's all Seid umschlungen, Millionen! .

And in the major mode (except for that G minor episode, a fine tonal and emotional contrast!).

[Opus106]

The opening of Beethoven 9 finale is an introductory passage which is deliberately unrelated to the "happy" music that follows.  The fact that this passage is in minor key is not related to the argument because it does not contribute "happy" mood, except as a contrasting, ominous, gloomy section.

Actually, the issue of "key" isn't resolved in the opening, only many bars down the road. The "ominous representation of chaos" as it has been called, is essentially a I & V 'open' chord. Without a III (or II or IV) in there, there is little you can tell about it. Although in fact it does become a minor eventually...

And in the major mode (except for that G minor episode, a fine tonal and emotional contrast!).

I now see my folly and understand, albeit very superficially, where I had gone wrong. Thank you, gentlemen.

[karlhenning]

The Mendelssohn overture does begin with a theme in E minor.

Well, really, it begins with a brief wind chorale in E Major . . . .

[PerfectWagnerite]

As for Mozart's G minor symphony, the first movement has always seemed to me a tragic piece, perhaps bearing a premonition of his coming early death. I can't think of another of his symphonies with such a tragic first movement main theme.

How about the "little" G-minor, symphony #25?

[Scarpia]

Gloomy is in the ear of the listener.  But Mozart symphonies, with very few exceptions, are bright, extroverted music.  Darker themes are to found in the chamber music, such as the g-minor piano quartet, the c-minor string quintet and the minor key wind octet, which was later transcribed for string quintet.  But none strike me as "tragic" (whatever that means) but dark hued and defiant.

[karlhenning]

No , I don't think either of the g minor symphonies "tragic," either.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The Mendelssohn overture does begin with a theme in E minor. This is soon superseded by a joyous theme in E major, and eventually by the climactic theme in B major. The development thereafter is as one would expect back and forth using material from these contrasting themes. There's at least as much major as minor in the movement, if not more.

Yes, I know all that. But the key of a work in sonata form is always identified by the key of its main subject. Similarly, the 5th and 9th symphonies of Beethoven are identified as being in C minor and D minor, even though their finales are in the tonic major. The point remains that the first subject in the Mendelssohn is in the minor, pianissimo and in very rapid eighth notes, and though it couldn't be described as "gloomy" or "tragic," the use of the minor mode does give the material an emotional effect — perhaps a kind of wistfulness or melancholy — that it wouldn't have in the major. The same could be said of the G minor scherzo to Mendelssohn's Octet (whose primary key is Eb major).

[Cato]

To spin this question a different way: I recall reading a theory book many many many moons ago, which showed (I think) a page of the only symphony by  Paul Dukas.

The author with great puzzlement noted the key signature (it had many sharps, so probably B major) which the composer was immediately negating with a flurry of naturals and flats!   

The advice to the budding composer was....not to do that!   

In such a case, therefore, the key was certainly inappropriate!