Saul's Music Space

[Luke]

What I was upset about was the statement of almost an irrefutable fact by some posters here that writing today in the classical style of the past is a lost case, and shouldn't be produced in order to be taken seriously.

I just think it is more complex than that, you see. It is fine to love Mozart, Mendelssohn etc. more than any other composers, but you live in 2010, and you've heard all this other 'stuff' (atonal stuff, pop stuff, jazz, whatever) even if you don't like it. It's in your head, you can't wipe your mind clean of it.

So, in your B minor piece, there are little syncopations which sound vaguely funky - you liked them, so you put them in, and there's nothing wrong with that....but their source isn't the baroque, it is jazz, or pop, or something. You see, that's all that I/we mean - what you have experienced in your life is part of you, and it will seep into your music whether you want it to or not. Funky syncopations are part of Saul's experience of life; he writes them because he feels them. Great, that is good - but it means the music isn't pure baroque

Well, that's fine, you've actually said you don't want to just write pastiche, you want to do more with it than that. That was very good to read. But the important step to take, I think, even before any of the technical stuff, maybe, is finding out what you, Saul, really are like as a musician. I don't mean your tastes, I mean the way sounds come out of you naturally. And then, take that as a gift, run with it, beaver away at it - it is the key to really becoming yourself as a composer.

In my case, I have my own favourite composers, but I've never tried to compose like them. They did it already, and they did it perfectly, because they were them. I'm me, so I needed to find what worked for me. And I think I did, to the extent that I think my music sounds like me, anyway, though that doesn't mean I'm not still looking to refine all of that, and I might decide tomorrow that I've been doing it all wrong.

In your case, it might be that you need to drop some of the preconceptions you have made about yourself and how your music tastes ought to be reflected in your composing. Just compose without thinking about other people's styles, and observe what happens. And when you see trends develop, seize on them, work at them, they are the real music you ought to be writing.

Well, that's my view of things, anyway!

[Saul]

I just think it is more complex than that, you see. It is fine to love Mozart, Mendelssohn etc. more than any other composers, but you live in 2010, and you've heard all this other 'stuff' (atonal stuff, pop stuff, jazz, whatever) even if you don't like it. It's in your head, you can't wipe your mind clean of it.

So, in your B minor piece, there are little syncopations which sound vaguely funky - you liked them, so you put them in, and there's nothing wrong with that....but their source isn't the baroque, it is jazz, or pop, or something. You see, that's all that I/we mean - what you have experienced in your life is part of you, and it will seep into your music whether you want it to or not. Funky syncopations are part of Saul's experience of life; he writes them because he feels them. Great, that is good - but it means the music isn't pure baroque

Well, that's fine, you've actually said you don't want to just write pastiche, you want to do more with it than that. That was very good to read. But the important step to take, I think, even before any of the technical stuff, maybe, is finding out what you, Saul, really are like as a musician. I don't mean your tastes, I mean the way sounds come out of you naturally. And then, take that as a gift, run with it, beaver away at it - it is the key to really becoming yourself as a composer.

In my case, I have my own favourite composers, but I've never tried to compose like them. They did it already, and they did it perfectly, because they were them. I'm me, so I needed to find what worked for me. And I think I did, to the extent that I think my music sounds like me, anyway, though that doesn't mean I'm not still looking to refine all of that, and I might decide tomorrow that I've been doing it all wrong.

In your case, it might be that you need to drop some of the preconceptions you have made about yourself and how your music tastes ought to be reflected in your composing. Just compose without thinking about other people's styles, and observe what happens. And when you see trends develop, seize on them, work at them, they are the real music you ought to be writing.

Well, that's my view of things, anyway!

Great read, but on the other hand what do you do when someone writes that your symphony moved them so much?

I mean this classical feeling and style found in my first symphony moved a good number of people. I have sold over 400 Cd of my works and got a good number of them praising my music. One person upon purchasing one of my Cd's was so impressed that he sent me a check in the mail for an additional 7 Cds, which included this Symphony. Another woman purchased 7 Cds to give to her family and friends. An Israeli women had sent me $50 for the score of my Ancient Dance In G minor. I receive a nice amount of emails and comments on my you tube page by people who just love music and by those who are professional musicians praising my work and some even asking to purchase a number of my scores so they could perform them.

My question essentially is what does a composer do when he really feels that his music has moved a good number of people with the style and manner that he writes?

Two days ago I received the following comment on my Symphony In F sharp minor after I posted it on Youtube:

"Heavenly...music sounds deeply in my spirit.
feels like deep prayer goes from everywhere".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jn1qrXJ_cA


You musicians more then anyone else must know what this means to a composer...

[Luke]

But the important step to take, I think, even before any of the technical stuff, maybe, is finding out what you, Saul, really are like as a musician. I don't mean your tastes, I mean the way sounds come out of you naturally.

Further to that, I'd add that what you were doing with your third atonal gibberish piece, though you meant it as a joke, is actually preciesley what I meant. I don't think Guido - or was it Greg? - or both? - was/were joking when he/they said they liked this better than anything else of yours they'd heard. I think I did too - and the reason was, it was flowing, spontaneous, it was new, and it sounded like something different.

Now, maybe it 'only' sounded different because when you let your hands loose on the keyboard, untramelled by stylistic worries, they reach for particular shapes that are essentially unique to you. My hands do that, and I let them, and (with refinements) I often use these shapes that my hands reach for in my pieces. It's part of what makes my pieces sound like me - that my hands play the piano differently to everyone else's (and so do yours, and so do Karl's etc. etc.). It's also why, although my music looks hard to play, I find it very easy - it fits my hands like a glove, but probably wouldn't fit everyone's so well.

The point to this - exactly what I was saying before, about finding out what YOU do, not what those stylistic worries tell you to do. What your hands do when given free rein on a piano is just one, physical part of it. You need to explore that, and all sorts of other things, perhaps, to discover what really works for YOU and makes your music individual.

[Saul]

Luke,

All these three gibberish pieces I composed off the piano. I just used Finale to enter the notes using my imagination, glad you were somewhat impressed by it.

[Luke]

Great read, but on the other hand what do you do when someone writes that your symphony moved them so much?

I mean this classical feeling and style found in my first symphony moved a good number of people. I have sold over 400 Cd of my works and got a good number of them praising my music. One person upon purchasing one of my Cd's was so impressed that he sent me a check in the mail for an additional 7 Cds, which included this Symphony. Another woman purchased 7 Cds to give to her family and friends. An Israeli women had sent me $50 for the score of my Ancient Dance In G minor. I receive a nice amount of emails and comments on my you tube page by people who just love music and by those who are professional musicians parsing my work and some even asking to purchase a number of my scores so they could perform them.

My question essentially is what does a composer do when he really fells that his music has moved a good number of people with the style and manner that he writes?

Two days ago I received the following comment on my Symphony In F sharp minor after I posted it on Youtube:

"Heavenly...music sounds deeply in my spirit.
feels like deep prayer goes from everywhere".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jn1qrXJ_cA


You musicians more then anyone lese must know what this means to a composer...

I understand. But to me, composing is a basic need for myself. I'm happy when my music pleases people, and I would be unhappy if it didn't, but more important than anything, to me, is that it flows naturally from me, without the hindrance of worrying too much about reception*. There is nothing more personal, to me, than the act of writing down music, and so, ultimately, I have to do it in the way that is right for me. And if I don't, I start to feel clogged up, mentally!

*that's not an anti-audience who-cares-if-you-listen arrogance, it's just priorities - if I am not pleased with my music, how can I happily show it to anyone else?

[Luke]

Luke,

All these three gibberish pieces I composed off the piano. I just used Finale to enter the notes using my imagination, glad you were somewhat impressed by it.

It was the last one which worked best, I think. What I see there, more than anything, is the vague potential for stuff you could work on in the future. With a piece like that, once written, I would examine it carefully and see which bits work best and are most personal. And then I would refine these ideas, work on them until they become Saul fingerprints.

[springrite]

Why can't everyone just accept the fact that Saul is the greatest living composer who has just finished composing the perfect piece of music and stop all your jeaous comments? He is the New Bach.

[Saul]

Why can't everyone just accept the fact that Saul is the greatest living composer who has just finished composing the perfect piece of music and stop all your jeaous comments? He is the New Bach.

Because no one has ever suggested this, but you.

[Luke]

There is nothing more personal, to me, than the act of writing down music, and so, ultimately, I have to do it in the way that is right for me.

That, btw, is why those fugues I wrote will never get on to my 'worklist', will never really be 'my' music (even though I composed every note). Because they didn't really flow from me, that isn't the way I naturally compose. They were fun, people like them, as far as I know - but I feel no really personal connection with them as I do with most of the other music I've written in the last 6 or 7 years. They don't feel like they come from me.

[Saul]

Plenty.

As Karl said, it's not baroque pastiche, of course not, just as the piece of mine that I posted isn't pastiche. It is - they are - both informed by the baroque, but they don't intend stopping there. In a very real sense, the way in which baroque features are viewed through a modern prism in Karl's piece makes it a much more vital, alive piece than your B minor one, I think, even though yours is generally faster, louder etc. I love the way Karl has run with the idea of a baroque walking bass, just tilting it onto its side (metaphorically speaking) so that it becomes something else entirely, something alive and speaking, whilst at the same time still remaining recognisable rooted to that ancestral basso continuo line (cello pizz.?). Similarly, I love the way Karl takes that little incipit, with its fairly straightforward baroque ornamentation, and lets it fly (I didn't like it when I was sightreading it, mind!). The complexities mount, the tuplets become more complex, the figurations more tricky; from the baroque the line takes on shades of (say) Eastern European folk singing, complete with glottal stops and ululations. Karl is always very good at riding that tightrope, I think, where his lines seem to be poised between two or more things, stylistically, historically, geographically - Bach, Hindemith, folk song, Finnissy (yes, there's lots here in Karl's way with ornamenting a melody that reminds me of Finnissy's incomparable skill at that job)..... are these all here, for starters. It makes for a very allusive and rich listening (and playing) experience.

You see - that's what happens when a composer is not simply aiming at pastiche, but is able to draw on a range of repertoires, baroque being only the most obvious one here, is able to 'speak' fluently and personally in them, and is able skillfully to bring them into meaningful relationship to each other. It can only come with openness to a variety of musics, though.

Interesting analysis of the piece, but to me the piece sounded either very baroque at times, and very modern almost atonal at times. I wish I had heard more infusion of both styles more clearly. Perhaps that's what Karl was aiming at, but its very difficult to infuse such opposing elements and styles into a single composition that will sound natural and flowing, I almost sensed some sort of hesitation within the music, I'm not sure why, but its like he didn't want to give too much of either one, not the Baroque and not the modern been concerned that one will overpower the other.

Nice performance by you anyways, and a good decent work by Karl, after all said and done it I had pleasure listening to it.

Cheers,

Saul

[Saul]

I asked this in another thread with no response but how does one go about writing music on the computer.  I write the old fashion way with pencil and music manuscript paper. 



Is writing music on the computer easier or harder than writing it free hand?  Do I need to buy a program or are there free ones.  I have a Mac Mini with OS X 10.5.8 Leopard.

Thanks in advance.

Teresa,

There is no shame in writing music using a notation program. There are a number of notation programs available out there. The two famous ones are Finale and Sibelius, each costs around 600 to 700 dollars.
I strongly suggest that you purchase one, for it will ignite your imagination in ways you have never thought possible.

Many composers use the keyboard to enter their notes on the virtual music page. I personally don't do that. I enter each and every note manually as if I was composing with a pen and a paper. The great advantage of composing like this, that every time you enter your note, the computer plays the note for you and you can hear it and things become more easier and faster this way, especially when you wrote a musical idea and you want to hear it played right away, the computer can do that for you.

Hope this helped,

Regards,

Saul

[Luke]

Just for clarity, you might want to edit your post 81, because the post of mine you've quoted isn't the one you are replying to underneath 

[Saul]

Just for clarity, you might want to edit your post 81, because the post of mine you've quoted isn't the one you are replying to underneath 

Done! 

[Luke]

Cool

[Brian]

As I say, I have no idea about this man, nothing other than what you tell us. If he is as good a musician as you say, then he will certainly have spotted the error I pointed out.

I know of Eliran Avni, he is an Israeli pianist and a very good musician.  But, I doubt he would have said anything that would have embarrassed an aspiring composer showing him a composition, although I am sure he was aware of the fact that the piece is clearly in 4/4 but notated in 3/4.

I tend to side with Franco - Mr Avni likely did not mention the error out of politeness, or out of an unwillingness to have to begin the constructive criticism at such a basic, disheartening level. Of course, this judgment is just based on the fact that I've heard Mr Avni play on CDs and find him a very talented artist. For what it's worth, his constant championship of the music of Avner Dorman suggests that Mr Avni is a proponent of tonal, "classical" styles seen through a 21st century prism, music that combines the "neo-baroque," romantic melodicism, and high energy while being very distinctively modern. Dorman does not write music that imitates Bach; he writes music that reminds you that he likes Bach.

[Luke]

I tend to side with Franco - Mr Avni likely did not mention the error out of politeness, or out of an unwillingness to have to begin the constructive criticism at such a basic, disheartening level.

Not a mater of sides - that was one of the three possibilities I initially posited myself here - that either Saul was exagerating, or Mr Avni was not as great a musician as Saul said, or that Mr Avni was being polite. Although it sounds as if he did in fact tell Saul he needed to improve his skills, even if he didn't single out the glaring error that I would have expected him to mention.

[Saul]

I tend to side with Franco - Mr Avni likely did not mention the error out of politeness, or out of an unwillingness to have to begin the constructive criticism at such a basic, disheartening level. Of course, this judgment is just based on the fact that I've heard Mr Avni play on CDs and find him a very talented artist. For what it's worth, his constant championship of the music of Avner Dorman suggests that Mr Avni is a proponent of tonal, "classical" styles seen through a 21st century prism, music that combines the "neo-baroque," romantic melodicism, and high energy while being very distinctively modern. Dorman does not write music that imitates Bach; he writes music that reminds you that he likes Bach.

When I heard Avni play this music on Youtube I couldnt believe it. Such poor music in my opinion, I don't really get what he found in this music, perhaps he did it because he knew Dorman from Israel, I don't know. This particular work of Dorman is an example of a very poor music written in classical style. I really didnt like it when I heard it about two years ago on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/v/7l6GFcFE9cc

[Teresa]

Teresa,

There is no shame in writing music using a notation program. There are a number of notation programs available out there. The two famous ones are Finale and Sibelius, each costs around 600 to 700 dollars.
I strongly suggest that you purchase one, for it will ignite your imagination in ways you have never thought possible.

Many composers use the keyboard to enter their notes on the virtual music page. I personally don't do that. I enter each and every note manually as if I was composing with a pen and a paper. The great advantage of composing like this, that every time you enter your note, the computer plays the note for you and you can hear it and things become more easier and faster this way, especially when you wrote a musical idea and you want to hear it played right away, the computer can do that for you.

Hope this helped,

Regards,

Saul

Saul thanks for the suggestions.  Are there any free programs for Mac?  Money is a problem now, especially big-time money like $600-$700. 

[Luke]

I quite like it, on it's own terms - pretty good stuff. Not really my taste, but it is doing exactly the sort of thing Brian is saying -

"classical" styles seen through a 21st century prism, music that combines the "neo-baroque," romantic melodicism, and high energy while being very distinctively modern

The modern touches are lightly and charmingly applied, discret bits of modality, simple motoric rhythms with a touch of syncopation, playful dynamic contrasts. And it works on its own terms, it doesn't ask to be heard as an attempt to recreate a style, it simply inhabits its own. I hesitate to say that this is the sort of thing I would have imagined that you might want to write, Saul.....but, actually, it is!

[Saul]

I quite like it, on it's own terms - pretty good stuff. Not really my taste, but it is doing exactly the sort of thing Brian is saying -

The modern touches are lightly and charmingly applied, discret bits of modality, simple motoric rhythms with a touch of syncopation, playful dynamic contrasts. And it works on its own terms, it doesn't ask to be heard as an attempt to recreate a style, it simply inhabits its own. I hesitate to say that this is the sort of thing I would have imagined that you might want to write, Saul.....but, actually, it is!

No, I don't want to write this kind of music. It lacks many things in my opinion. Drama, depth, and meaning. Listen to it carefully again, try to understand what the composers is saying, I just don't get what he wants to say with this piece.