Is King Crimson the best rock music has to offer?

[gomro]

I mean in terms of complexity and invention (i'll leave aesthetics for another day).

Go to this site and listen to some of their releases:

www.cuneiformrecords.com

Many of these bands evolved from King Crimson's achievements, but for my money many have exceeded those achievements in their own work.

[Haffner]

Go to this site and listen to some of their releases:

www.cuneiformrecords.com

Many of these bands evolved from King Crimson's achievements, but for my money many have exceeded those achievements in their own work.

I think that's possible, not probable. Today's bands seem to be rehashing the same chords over and over, attempting to push each instrumentalist's speed of execution over any real compositional breakthroughs. This is prevalent throughout the Rock and Metal genres. I noticed that once I listened with extra attention to the works of Liszt, Wagner, Mahler, and Schoenberg, I started hearing just how boring today's "Progressive Rock/Metal" is.

As uninterested in King Crimson as I've been (not hard enough for me), I have to admit that at least they were innovators toward the underlying forms.  Rock had to go somewere, the endless Little Richard and Chuck Berry banging imitators had their own place, but people were looking for more in the early '70's.

Frank Zappa pushed it even further, and for me listening to music like Sheik Yerbuti and Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar tends to make Crimson, Yes, and Queen even less interesting (often for the sheer "balls" and obvious imagination of these mid-era Zappa recordings).

Please understand that this is only the opinion of some lame guitar teacher in Burlington, Vermont.
And (alot of folks in here won't like this), the only real "innovations" and "fruitful experimentation" I hear today are in the Extreme Death metal genre.

[Iconito]

Frank Zappa pushed it even further, and for me listening to music like Sheik Yerbuti and Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar tends to make Crimson, Yes, and Queen even less interesting

Crimson, Yes and Queen (!!!???) in the same sentence? Impressive... Well... You told this forum several times about you discovering some new music and rehashing your tastes and opinions so, why not, maybe some day you'll enjoy Crimson... Have you tried "the construKction of light"? I think track 6 ("The World's My Oyster Soup Kitchen Floor Wax Museum") might be "hard" enough for you and serve you as a good entry point (although I don't completely buy your "not hard enough" argument... How "hard" is Zappa??? Or should I better ask what do you mean with "hard"?)

Take into account that I've just got me a copy of Necrophagist's "Epitaph" to show you my good will, so you better try the damn album I've just mentioned and report back!

[Haffner]

Crimson, Yes and Queen (!!!???) in the same sentence? Impressive... Well... You told this forum several times about you discovering some new music and rehashing your tastes and opinions so, why not, maybe some day you'll enjoy Crimson... Have you tried "the construKction of light"? I think track 6 ("The World's My Oyster Soup Kitchen Floor Wax Museum") might be "hard" enough for you and serve you as a good entry point (although I don't completely buy your "not hard enough" argument... How "hard" is Zappa??? Or should I better ask what do you mean with "hard"?)

Take into account that I've just got me a copy of Necrophagist's "Epitaph" to show you my good will, so you better try the damn album I've just mentioned and report back!

Get ready to be very interested, particularly in the 2nd to 4th tracks.

"The Construktion of Light?" is that spelled correctly? I'll check it out when the great green god showers me with bank notes (in other words, hopefully soon.)

I guess that Zappa can be construed as "heavy" in terms of outright testicular exposure and panache.

[Iconito]

"The Construktion of Light?" is that spelled correctly?

It's "the construKction of light" with "Kc" (and no, surely it's not spelled correctly. It's just how they've chosen to spell it )

[karlhenning]

I guess that Zappa can be construed as "heavy" in terms of outright testicular exposure and panache.

He made himself a deliberately mixed bag, of course.  I admire the musical panache, but tire readily (to say the least) at the relentless potty mouth.  Where the nonsense is purely musical nonsense, though, it is at times brilliant nonsense;  and when he sheds the non-musical nonsense, his excellence has surprising range.

I think both Zappa and King Crimson suffered from the 'pop group' need to 'sing songs'.  In Zappa's case, his hardened cynicism resulted at times in an eager playing down to the teen boy crowd;  in that of King Crimson, while they are not 'fatal flaws' for me as a listener, some of the discs' songs strike me as a side-concession.

[Iconito]

in that of King Crimson, while they are not 'fatal flaws' for me as a listener, some of the discs' songs strike me as a side-concession.

I can agree with that (but I wonder, if we started naming specific songs, would we still agree? )

[gomro]

He made himself a deliberately mixed bag, of course.  I admire the musical panache, but tire readily (to say the least) at the relentless potty mouth.  Where the nonsense is purely musical nonsense, though, it is at times brilliant nonsense;  and when he sheds the non-musical nonsense, his excellence has surprising range.

I think both Zappa and King Crimson suffered from the 'pop group' need to 'sing songs'.  In Zappa's case, his hardened cynicism resulted at times in an eager playing down to the teen boy crowd;  in that of King Crimson, while they are not 'fatal flaws' for me as a listener, some of the discs' songs strike me as a side-concession.

go to www.cuneiformrecords.com and listen to/read the description of Ed Palermo's big band expansion and arrangement of Zappa's music, on the disc TAKE YOUR CLOTHES OFF WHEN YOU DANCE. I have never been a fan of Zappa, but this disc is one of this year's best so far.

[Haffner]

It's "the construKction of light" with "Kc" (and no, surely it's not spelled correctly. It's just how they've chosen to spell it )

Checking into it, thanks!

[Haffner]

I think both Zappa and King Crimson suffered from the 'pop group' need to 'sing songs'.  In Zappa's case, his hardened cynicism resulted at times in an eager playing down to the teen boy crowd;  in that of King Crimson, while they are not 'fatal flaws' for me as a listener, some of the discs' songs strike me as a side-concession.

As you know, most composers/musicians kind of have to do that. The relentless media strategies...

[karlhenning]

I can agree with that (but I wonder, if we started naming specific songs, would we still agree? )

Do you have a short list of songs you don't much care for? 

[Haffner]

At this point I feel kind of ignorant (only knowing "In the Court..." and Fripp's various projects). So I'm going to apologize for having written without having properly explored KC's works. I'm ready to give them a much fairer chance now.

[karlhenning]

go to www.cuneiformrecords.com and listen to/read the description of Ed Palermo's big band expansion and arrangement of Zappa's music, on the disc TAKE YOUR CLOTHES OFF WHEN YOU DANCE. I have never been a fan of Zappa, but this disc is one of this year's best so far.

Very interesting, thanks.

[Iconito]

At this point I feel kind of ignorant (only knowing "In the Court..." and Fripp's various projects). So I'm going to apologize for having written without having properly explored KC's works. I'm ready to give them a much fairer chance now.

Andy... Andy, Andy, Andy... I thought you were familiar with, at least, their '70s and '80s' stuff ("In the Court of the Crimson King" is from '69 ) OK. Back to square one.  I pointed you to that album (and particularly that song) because it's, well, pretty noisy and I thought you might feel comfortable with that But now that we know that you barely know the band at all, you might want to check "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" ('73) and "Discipline" ('81) as well... If you don't like any of those 3 records at all, well, I guess you can stop trying.

Do you have a short list of songs you don't much care for? 

Mmm.............................................

You start!

[Haffner]

Andy... Andy, Andy, Andy... I thought you were familiar with, at least, their '70s and '80s' stuff ("In the Court of the Crimson King" is from '69 ) OK. Back to square one.  I pointed you to that album (and particularly that song) because it's, well, pretty noisy and I thought you might feel comfortable with that But now that we know that you barely know the band at all, you might want to check "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" ('73) and "Discipline" ('81) as well...

Thank you!

[techniquest]

KC has never been one of my favourite bands, but individual thracks such as 'Starless' and 'Epitaph' are really superb. In terms of complexity of music, I don't agree that they are the last word. Earlier posts have discussed Yes and in particular 'Tales from Topographic Oceans' which is about as close to a rock symphony as I have come across. However, others have taken the musical complexity as a whole still further - I'm thinking of Robert John Godfrey and 'The Enid'. Albums such as 'Aerie Faerie Nonsense' with the massive track 'Fand' or 'Six Pieces', or the opening track to 'The Spell' are almost 'classical' compositions in their form.

[Iconito]

KC has never been one of my favourite bands, but individual thracks such as 'Starless' and 'Epitaph' are really superb.

I agree with you on "Starless". "Epitaph", on the other hand, pretty much bores me, as does the rest of that album (except for "21st Century Schizoid Man") I know, it's supposed to be a Classic. Well...

In terms of complexity of music, I don't agree that they are the last word.

Don't worry. There's no complexity contest going on... Anyway, Crimson is complex enough to keep me interested.

Earlier posts have discussed Yes and in particular 'Tales from Topographic Oceans' which is about as close to a rock symphony as I have come across.

I like "Relayer" better.

However, others have taken the musical complexity as a whole still further - I'm thinking of Robert John Godfrey and 'The Enid'.

This is a quote from Wikipedia:

"Robert John Godfrey has said that he does not regard The Enid as a progressive rock band and would rather not be associated with the term, but that has not stopped prog rock fanzines and websites from promoting the band. He has also been quite scathing in his criticism of "neo-progressive" bands like Marillion and Pendragon, accusing them of lacking charm, talent and originality."

I'm beginning to like this guy! I think I'll check The Enid. Thanks!

[techniquest]

Don't worry. There's no complexity contest going on... Anyway, Crimson is complex enough to keep me interested.

First post by the thread starter. The question being whether KC is the best rock music has to offer in terms of complexity and invention. I agree it's not a complexity contest, but it is what the thread's inviting us to discuss.
Have a listen to The Enid; I'd be interested what you think

[Mirror Image]

In my early days of just beginning to learn and play the guitar my Dad told me I sound a lot like Robert Fripp. I didn't know who he was talking about, but he got out his CD of Beat and played the first song Neal and Jack and Me and my eyes got big and I had a huge grin on my face after the song was over. I simply couldn't believe what I had heard. The sound of Fripp and his edgy style really appealed to me. After this, I listened to every King Crimson album from the very beginning In the Court of the Crimson King to the most recent at that time Thrak. I really need to go back to their 70s albums. I've been wanting to revisit Red, In the Wake of Poseidon, Islands, Lizard, Larks' Tongues in Aspic, and Starless and Bible Black.

I think this group is brilliant and Robert Fripp is one of most remarkable musicians of our time. One of my favorite progressive rock groups without a doubt in my mind.

Other progressive rock groups I love: Yes, ELP, Genesis (Gabriel era and Collins' led Trick of the Tail/Wind & Wuthering era), Pink Flloyd, Marillion (particularly Fish era and Brave from Hogarth era), Camel, Frank Zappa, and Gentle Giant.

[ibanezmonster]

When you say rock do you count metal too? coz you know, metal evolved from rock...and if you do..there are certainly TONS of bands that are way more complex. Technical death metal, symphonic power metal, hair metal...opeth..stratovarius...even Megadeth has tons of complex guitar solos in their Rust in Peace album. Marty Friedman is a virtuoso.

None of that stuff even remotely approaches King Crimson in any of the criteria used to define musical complexity and novelty of invention, not even close. 

To think i expected a real answer. NEXT.

I wasn't familiar with Opeth at the time, but just wanted to say that dismissing them, he obviously has never listened to them. I can name several metal bands that are as complex or inventive as King Crimson, but "great" or "best" is all relative to taste.

But that is metal... as for rock, I'm not really sure. Some of Dream Theater's stuff might be a contender.