conductors' salaries

[zamyrabyrd]

Don't know if y'all read this article in the Guardian or if this subject appeared here sometime (maybe wayyy back). Some food for thought however...why should a person beating his arms in space get another digit or more in salary than a hard working orchestral player?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/06/orchestral-conductors-pay-cut

The Myth of the Maestro For all their huge salaries, it is hard to say what difference the conductor really makes to the playing of music.  By Philippa Ibbotson guardian.co.uk, Tues 6 October 2009

"...In London, the resident conductor for a major symphony orchestra receives £25,000 per concert. Rank-and-file players, meanwhile, typically earn £107 for a rehearsal and concert...In the US, orchestras are challenging the status quo – the Chicago Symphony has announced a cut in its 2010 fees for guest artists and conductors. Perhaps British orchestras should do that, too."

ZB

[Lethevich]

In the US, orchestras are challenging the status quo

I was under the impression that European orchestras paid their "star" conductors less than US ones, due to how much fund-raising and so on that the latter are expected to lend their name and presence to...

Conductor wages only went out of control during the recorded era, spear-headed by Karajan in particular, but the status of major conductors living comfortably while their musicians do not seems to have been a permenent permanent fixture since the early Romantic period.

Edit: I can't spell.

[Renfield]

Presumably the rationale is that a conductor is paid a premium for their expertise, much like a scientific advisor might be paid more than many rank-and-file participants in a project. It's not unreasonable, assuming the conductor does have expertise to be paid for.

[Maciek]

Hm, what sort of expertise is that (it has to be something the members of the orchestra lack, I gather?)? Conductor-less orchestras do exist. If there are instrumentalist-less ones, I haven't heard about them...

I always assumed the conductor got paid more because (if there is any rational reason at all) he was in a sort of managerial position (like any supervisor who coordinates the actions of a group)? Though I'm not saying there isn't something wrong with how much more he gets paid.

[Please note that I have not actually expressed any opinion about the subject at hand. I'm not really sure I have any. Also, I haven't yet read the article ZB linked to! 0:)]

[Renfield]

Hm, what sort of expertise is that (it has to be something the members of the orchestra lack, I gather?)? Conductor-less orchestras do exist. If there are instrumentalist-less ones, I haven't heard about them...

Musical expertise, structural expertise, interpretational expertise, and indeed managerial expertise, in the sense of knowing how to get things to click together in a musical performance. Enhancing the cohesion of a group effort is not trivial.

[Coopmv]

From the 1989 obituary for HvK, I read that he was already making some $6MM/year for some times.  I wonder if there is any conductor currently out there that makes that kind of money, even considering inflation has been zero for the past twenty years? 

[Herman]

From the 1989 obituary for HvK, I read that he was already making some $6MM/year for some times.  I wonder if there is any conductor currently out there that makes that kind of money, even considering inflation has been zero for the past twenty years?

This was when record sales were a big part of a conductor's income, and HvK was the DG flagship conductor.

[Brahmsian]

Should a conductor make any less than a CEO or CFO of a company?  I think not.  Most conductors are not just 'conducting'.  They are the symphony orchestra's 'music directors', and work and deal with every aspect of the symphony orchestras activities, from program directing and setting, marketing, recruitment etc.  Essentially, they put in countless hours.  Without a competent, energetic conductor who can do all those things, the orchestra may as well just shut it's doors.

[Herman]

Should a conductor make any less than a CEO or CFO of a company?  I think not.  Most conductors are not just 'conducting'.  They are the symphony orchestra's 'music directors', and work and deal with every aspect of the symphony orchestras activities, from program directing and setting, marketing, recruitment etc.  Essentially, they put in countless hours.  Without a competent, energetic conductor who can do all those things, the orchestra may as well just shut it's doors.

Not nessecarily. Guest conductors (and virtually every conductor does a lot of guest conducting) get hefty fees, too.

I can't help but think all this is very old hat after a year of hearing about Wall St bankers making a million dollar a day, on average, for running the economy in a ditch.

You could hire an orchestra of conductors for the kind of money these Goldman Sachs types make.

[Brahmsian]

I can't help but think all this is very old hat after a year of hearing about Wall St bankers making a million dollar a day, on average, for running the economy in a ditch.

You could hire an orchestra of conductors for the kind of money these Goldman Sachs types make.

No kidding.  Some, if not most of the major Canadian banks (that's an oxymoron ) announced record profits.  *Head scratch* 

[MishaK]

ZB, this article is one of the worst pieces of music journalism in recent history. When a musician friend of mine (who plays in a major orchestra) posted this on facebook in October, it generated an unending slew of comments from other musicians, the general gist of which was: this twit doesn't know what she's talking about and she can't do math. Mind you: all the people who commented were orchestra musicians who should be congenitally predisposed towards hating conductors and undervaluing their contribution.

At a top five US symphony orchestra the music director might earn a little over a million to a million and a half*, which together with guest engagements elsewhere might get him to a little over two million, while the base salary for tenured members of the orchestra will be around $125K. Senior principal players can earn considerably more. That's nowhere near the 100:1 ratio this writer raves about. Even at the bottom end of the orchestra rankings, while players earn considerably less than in the big leagues, they also don't hire conductors who earn the 25K pounds per performance mentioned in the article. (An Aussie musician friend of mine likes to classify conductors as either 'too expensive for Australia' or not.) According to people I know in the business, you might have a ratio of 10:1 among lower tier orchestras but not 100:1. You can't compare the fees of an international star conductor with the money musicians make in a fourth rate pick up orchestra. No-name conductors make a pittance and all conductors have to live on next to nothing for years after leaving the conservatory as they toil as singing coaches in opera houses and assistant conductors for more famous maestros. Those are some of the most underpaid jobs in the business. Given the tiny number of real successes who come out of that grueling experience, the big figures paid to the select few 'greats' are neither surprising nor really unfair.

My figures may be slightly out of date, but the ratios aren't. That is just bad math leading to a really stupid and tendentious article.

She also writes on the basis of a very antiquated idea of the autocratic maestro which really no longer conforms to reality. Nobody would ever describe e.g. Salonen, Haitink or Abbado as all-powerful autocrats "oozing self-belief". That's just silly. Toscanini and Karajan have been dead for decades. Any serious orchestra musician will tell you that the difference between a merely competent and a truly great conductor is immense and immediately noticeable. The opening subtitle, "it is hard to say what difference the conductor really makes to the playing of music", betrays the author's ignorance of her subject.

*Excepting Maazel, who reportedly earned around $2M from the NYPO for reasons entirely beyond me. He made a similar amount previously from the BRSO.

[Coopmv]

No kidding.  Some, if not most of the major Canadian banks (that's an oxymoron ) announced record profits.  *Head scratch* 

Because the Canadian bankers do not believe in all the smoke and mirrors financial gimmicks ...   

[Coopmv]

Should a conductor make any less than a CEO or CFO of a company?  I think not.  Most conductors are not just 'conducting'.  They are the symphony orchestra's 'music directors', and work and deal with every aspect of the symphony orchestras activities, from program directing and setting, marketing, recruitment etc.  Essentially, they put in countless hours.  Without a competent, energetic conductor who can do all those things, the orchestra may as well just shut it's doors.

I imagine conductors these days have to be involved in funds raising more than ever given the state of the classical music industry in general.  BTW,  The only reason Kurt Masur's contract with the NYPO was not renewed was he ran afoul of some members of the NYPO Board of Directors on policy matters.  In these uncertain times, conductors are no doubt involved in much more than music-making, which in turn can lead to conflicts that have little to do with music-making altogether. 

[MishaK]

In these uncertain times, conductors are no doubt involved in much more than music-making, which in turn can lead to conflicts that have little to do with music-making altogether.

It has always been thus. That is neither a result of modern times nor of the present economic situation. Even among state-run European orchestras music director appointments were always at least as much politics as music. See e.g. Mahler at Vienna, Solti's removal in Munich in the 50s, Barenboim's collision with French politics in 1980s Paris, the whole Thielemann soap opera in Munich, etc. etc. The MD job has always been political as well. Whether you have to suck up to the blue haired ladies on the board of a donations funded US non-profit orchestra, or whether you have to suck up to local politicians and artistic directors. That is also a management skill a music director has always needed in order to do the job well and improve the caliber of his orchestra.

[zamyrabyrd]

No-name conductors make a pittance and all conductors have to live on next to nothing for years after leaving the conservatory as they toil as singing coaches in opera houses and assistant conductors for more famous maestros. Those are some of the most underpaid jobs in the business. Given the tiny number of real successes who come out of that grueling experience, the big figures paid to the select few 'greats' are neither surprising nor really unfair.

Hi there,

I don't know whether conductors without a job do any worse than pianists, violinists, singers or theorbo players. (All of the preceding presumably made a career choice.)

Coaching singing, that is if one doesn't like it, can be considered toil. (I find it interesting.) But how does a non-singer really get to know how opera works from the inside out unless s/he goes through such a preparation process, or as assistant conductors, the orchestral repetoire?

As for "music director", management issues may be true for resident conductors who do such work. But not all of them stay in one place, and in fact, that is a complaint for many of them who travel extensively even without enough rehearsal time with a new orchestra, let alone for all the public relations business.

ZB