Musical Taste and Ideological Predisposition

[Roy Bland]

IMHO is interesting  that Furtwangler  contrasted Schoenberg with the childish Shostakovich

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/stories/arnold-schoenerg-premiere-op-31/

[AnotherSpin]

IMHO is interesting  that Furtwangler  contrasted Schoenberg with the childish Shostakovich

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/stories/arnold-schoenerg-premiere-op-31/

Thank you, it was interesting read. "He saw in the "efforts of an Alban Berg, Schoenberg et al." the counterpart to the "modern infantilism of a Shostakovich", and was always at pains to defend the inventor of twelve-tone music against his narrow-minded followers."

[Roy Bland]

https://www.lhistoire.fr/beethoven-et-hitler

[AnotherSpin]

https://mccs-journalism.gold.ac.uk/wp/polyphony/inside-putins-war-on-classical-music/

https://helda.helsinki.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/3b9c655d-a698-4d39-8396-9fbb64703194/content

https://van-magazine.com/mag/putin-shostakovich-leningrad-symphony-propaganda/

...

[Roasted Swan]

https://mccs-journalism.gold.ac.uk/wp/polyphony/inside-putins-war-on-classical-music/

https://helda.helsinki.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/3b9c655d-a698-4d39-8396-9fbb64703194/content

https://van-magazine.com/mag/putin-shostakovich-leningrad-symphony-propaganda/

...

Every ruler/empire/dictator in history has used the Arts as a way of projecting soft power.  This is in no way a revelation or exclusive to the former Soviet Union/current Russian state.  It would be more surprising, given the rich cultural heritage of all of the countries that formed the former Soviet Union, if they did not exploit their legacies.

BTW - the article about the Leningrad is behind a paywall - bloomin' Western Capitalism for you.

[AnotherSpin]

Every ruler/empire/dictator in history has used the Arts as a way of projecting soft power.  This is in no way a revelation or exclusive to the former Soviet Union/current Russian state.  It would be more surprising, given the rich cultural heritage of all of the countries that formed the former Soviet Union, if they did not exploit their legacies.

BTW - the article about the Leningrad is behind a paywall - bloomin' Western Capitalism for you.

Note of the Moderation: Once again, hostile statements against the listening habits and musical tastes of fellow members (even if in "blanket form") have had to be deleted. And they will continue to be deleted, to be very clear. The vast majority of members of GMG have expressed their sympathy with the Ukrainian people for the tragedy inflicted on them, but the moderation team will not tolerate statements implying that members are somehow accomplices to barbaric actions because they listen to music by Russian composers.

[AnotherSpin]

Note of the Moderation: Once again, hostile statements against the listening habits and musical tastes of fellow members (even if in "blanket form") have had to be deleted. And they will continue to be deleted, to be very clear. The vast majority of members of GMG have expressed their sympathy with Ukranian people for the tragedy inflicted on them, but the moderation team will not tolerate statements implying that members are somehow accomplices to barbaric actions because they listen to music by Russian composers.

no worries

[Karl Henning]

Note of the Moderation: Once again, hostile statements against the listening habits and musical tastes of fellow members (even if in "blanket form") have had to be deleted. And they will continue to be deleted, to be very clear. The vast majority of members of GMG have expressed their sympathy with Ukranian people for the tragedy inflicted on them, but the moderation team will not tolerate statements implying that members are somehow accomplices to barbaric actions because they listen to music by Russian composers.

Thanks for this.

[atardecer]

IMHO is interesting  that Furtwangler  contrasted Schoenberg with the childish Shostakovich

https://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de/en/stories/arnold-schoenerg-premiere-op-31/

Similarly to Furtwangler, I like some of Schoenberg but have difficulty appreciating much 12-tone music. It is interesting to me some of the notions people had around this music at the time. People like Schoenberg and Boulez really seemed to look on it as 'music of the future'. To me it sounds like the rotted corpse of Romanticism. I think it drains vitality out of any musical style it is mixed with. Perhaps it can have a kind of a macabre appeal, but it's expressive range to me seems quite limited. I'm surprised it became as influential as it did. Just my perspective.

[JBS]

Similarly to Furtwangler, I like some of Schoenberg but have difficulty appreciating much 12-tone music. It is interesting to me some of the notions people had around this music at the time. People like Schoenberg and Boulez really seemed to look on it as 'music of the future'. To me it sounds like the rotted corpse of Romanticism. I think it drains vitality out of any musical style it is mixed with. Perhaps it can have a kind of a macabre appeal, but it's expressive range to me seems quite limited. I'm surprised it became as influential as it did. Just my perspective.

Of the Grösser Dreikomponisten of the "Second Viennese School", Berg was far more able to express emotion than Schönberg and Webern in twelve-tone mode. Schönberg comes off best in his earlier period, and in the later compositions in which he didn't stick so firmly to his principles.

[Der lächelnde Schatten]

Of the Grösser Dreikomponisten of the "Second Viennese School", Berg was far more able to express emotion than Schönberg and Webern in twelve-tone mode. Schönberg comes off best in his earlier period, and in the later compositions in which he didn't stick so firmly to his principles.

The point you raise about Berg probably has something to do with the composer's allusions to tonal music. His Violin Concerto is a great example as he uses quotations from a Carinthian folk song and a Bach chorale. Also, there are implications of the triad in many of his 12-tone rows. I'm not terribly knowledgable about music theory like many of our more esteemed members here who actually studied music at the university level, but I can read some music notation and, of course, I can pick things apart with my ears.

[Roy Bland]

Similarly to Furtwangler, I like some of Schoenberg but have difficulty appreciating much 12-tone music. It is interesting to me some of the notions people had around this music at the time. People like Schoenberg and Boulez really seemed to look on it as 'music of the future'. To me it sounds like the rotted corpse of Romanticism. I think it drains vitality out of any musical style it is mixed with. Perhaps it can have a kind of a macabre appeal, but it's expressive range to me seems quite limited. I'm surprised it became as influential as it did. Just my perspective.

I meant to point out something different while Zhdanov saw in Shostakovich the underhand propagandist of the musical avant-garde on the contrary Furtwangler judged him infantile

[atardecer]

Of the Grösser Dreikomponisten of the "Second Viennese School", Berg was far more able to express emotion than Schönberg and Webern in twelve-tone mode. Schönberg comes off best in his earlier period, and in the later compositions in which he didn't stick so firmly to his principles.

You may be right, but I suspect that is because Berg never went as far into atonality as the other two, I think he stayed closer to the liminal area. I enjoy some of the music of all three, Webern has some pieces I find excellent but there is a certain threshold where the music becomes less compelling to me.

[atardecer]

I meant to point out something different while Zhdanov saw in Shostakovich the underhand propagandist of the musical avant-garde on the contrary Furtwangler judged him infantile

There are a number of interesting subjects one could point out from that article. Furtwangler like many musicians formed his own strong opinions on things, some I may agree with others I may find questionable. As far as the Shosty comment I don't really understand what reason he had for making it, or what exactly he meant. There isn't a lot of context for it there. 

[atardecer]

Of the Grösser Dreikomponisten of the "Second Viennese School", Berg was far more able to express emotion than Schönberg and Webern in twelve-tone mode. Schönberg comes off best in his earlier period, and in the later compositions in which he didn't stick so firmly to his principles.

I think my tastes often cause me to have different responses to music. For example people say that Chopin is more emotional compared with Bach, I can see what they mean in the sense that Chopin's music is more emotional in an extroverted sense. Yet Bach's music stirs emotions in me more so than Chopin, so this big revelation some find in Beethoven and Chopin relative to earlier music I don't relate to. (And I disagree with Furtwangler's opinion on Chopin and Bach being equals).

Similarly, I don't connect with Berg emotionally more so than Schoenberg or Webern.

[Jo498]

I am not sure I understand the comment on Shostakovich either.
But I would not be surprised if Furtwängler shared the conservative stance of Schönberg (also, at least partly of Adorno as a "theoretician" of modern music) that like Stravinsky Shostakovich "evaded" the task to continue the "organicist ideal" from Bach through Beethoven to Brahms and Wagner in favor of "denying" a lot of tradition or using it as an eclectic toolbox (this would fit better with neoclassical Stravinsky and some Shostakovich). (Recall that Schönberg called Stravinsky "little Modernsky" and pictured him as a child with a toy drum.)
And of course there was (but this was probably more in the post 2nd WW war period) the rejection of DSCH as a "Soviet composer" (but this would not fit infantilism).

[ultralinear]

Only a passing thought, but I wonder if what Furtwängler really thought he saw in Shostakovich was a lack of seriousness.  Being someone who in his youth had played piano accompaniment to silent movie comedies (until he was fired for laughing too much), went on to write the incidental music for a farcical music-hall entertainment featuring Moscow's most famous performing dog (Hypothetically Murdered), and even in mid-career would think of finishing a symphony with circus music (the 6th).  Shostakovich was adept at bending to the prevailing winds where Schönberg was uncompromising, which might seem better to fit the ideals of music as High Art for someone who cared about that.

[Jo498]

I have no idea how much and which Shostakovich Furtwängler would have known in the late 1940s? or whenever he made such a remark. Probably not very much and not a very good/representative sample which could easily lead to a very skewed impression.

[Roy Bland]

I try to lighten  tone of the discussion he was probably referring to Beatles