Musical Taste and Ideological Predisposition

[Florestan]

Essentially, traditional civilizations were "good" in principle, though not always so in fact, while modern society is evil in principle, though it does have a few advantages and good things in practice. That's an important distinction.

And who decides these principles?

Btw, Byzantium/Byzantine Empire is an ideologically-loaded term. They were simply the Roman Empire. The emperors, all of them, from St. Constantine to Constantine XII, never called themselves anything other than "Emperor of the Romans" and never called their state anything other than "Empire of the Romans"; the inhabitants never called themselves anything other than "Romans".

i can't think of a single culture that has succeded into turning a majority of people AWAY from God than modern secular civilization, with their supposedly "free" systems of goverments which however are clearly under the iron boot of a finantial oligarchy, which is just autocracy under a different name.

Here's a question for your consideration: if the "traditional" civilization was so good, just and benevolent, if the Christian principles so deeply permeated all its strata, from king to peasant, from bishop to cobbler, how come that it was possible to turn people away from it, in the first place? Certainly, one doesn't turn away from something they strongly consider good both in principle and in practice. That's like saying that in midwinter you can succeed in turning people away from a well-heated, well-furnished and well-stocked house.

Look, I don't claim that modern civilization is perfect. No civilization is. All are flawed in one way or another. None is purely good or purely evil. I don't live in the past, though, but in the here and now. And from my point of view, the good things of the here and now offset against the bad ones.

[steve ridgway]

I will die, almost assuredly, without being recognized as a full human by a significant portion of the population of the USA

I should point out that only Black Africans have 100% Homo sapiens DNA, the rest being found to have interbred with other related species, such as Neanderthals, that diverged from humans proper earlier in prehistory.

[hopefullytrusting]

I should point out that only Black Africans have 100% Homo sapiens DNA, the rest being found to have interbred with other related species, such as Neanderthals, that diverged from humans proper earlier in prehistory.

Lol, trust me, that irony is not lost on me.

Also, I've seen above folks talking about cherry picking - I don't need to cherry pick; I just need to exist.

[Opus131]

I should point out that only Black Africans have 100% Homo sapiens DNA, the rest being found to have interbred with other related species, such as Neanderthals, that diverged from humans proper earlier in prehistory.

I can't even begin to fathom what that is even supposed to mean.

[ritter]

I kindly remind members that the adjective musical appears in the thread title as established by the OP almost sixteen years ago now. I see no reference to music in the recent posts.

Please keep this thread on-topic. Thanks!

[Spotted Horses]

The most interesting thing about this thread is that there are users from 17 years ago that I remember, even though they made a very small number of posts (and are still registered).

[steve ridgway]

I believe nature is sacred and a kind of theophany.

I am probably not far away from you there, although have come to it through trying to put together the most inclusive possible picture of science, personal experiences of meaningful coincidences, trying to imagine what sort of universe I'd want if I had the power to create one, what purpose I'd have for it etc. Variety, differentiation, randomness, surprises, unexpected beauty are all important parts of it for me so I find music composed in accordance with strict rules limited to too small a subset of the possibilities.

[ritter]

As the connection of this thread to matters musical has all but disappeared, it belongs in The Diner, not the main board.

[Opus131]

So Pope John XXII was correct in his assessment of polyphony as representing the collapse and degradation of sacred music.

It depends. I'm not saying reactionaries don't exist, but i'm thinking of the general development not only of Christian art but western Christedom as a whole during the high middle ages and the changes in music were just part of a general change in the culture.

The latin west during this period seems to have veered more towards a kind of warrior spirit. This was the age of the gothic, which compared to the romansque felt more dramatic, almost frightful. It was an era of crusades, priestly warrior orders and even warrior popes (or at least one of them was). It was the era where the papacy begun to see itself not only as a spiritual authority but even a temporal one. Even in philosophy something like a form of conceptual combat was introduced with the new found influence of Aristotle (Plato for me always felt more like a priestly figure, with his metaphysical presuppositions and frequent references to myth) and the rise of scholasticism. And in polyphony one finds a shift towards a more cosmological conception, as if the focus went from God more towards creation, a process which of course ended reaching earth during the Renaissance and Baroque, music becoming more secular and "human".

Now i'm not saying medieval art in this period is "bad" if one looks at it from an art for art's sake point of view but i can see how those decrying the cultural changes of this era probably had a point because this shift in latin Christianity had some serious consequences. Many of the developments in the west, from the rise of secular humanism to the advent of Protestantism were a direct consequences of the cultural changes of the middle ages (and to answer your question as to how Byzantium could fall, the latin west had something to do with that, along with the rise of Islam).

It's also interesting how several medieval composers were actually almost veering towards modernism, which to me is a clear sign the trajectory of the high middle ages was one of implosion, and we don't have to speculate about that since the culture of the middle ages did in fact die out, so Pope John XXII was definitely on to something there.

[Mandryka]

It's also interesting how several medieval composers were actually almost veering towards modernism,

Who/what do you have in mind here?

And in polyphony one finds a shift towards a more cosmological conception, as if the focus went from God more towards creation, a process which of course ended reaching earth during the Renaissance and Baroque, music becoming more secular and "human".

I just note that there is no shortage of secular and human music from the Middle Ages.

[Opus131]

Who/what do you have in mind here?

I'm talking about the Ars subtilior composers:

I just note that there is no shortage of secular and human music from the Middle Ages.

True but there's a certain "mythical" or "dreamlike" quality to medieval secular art. When the sacred dominates the whole of the society is oriented towards the eternal to some degree, and even secular life adopts a kind of "timeless" character. Medieval people obviously enjoyed life like anybody else, all those songs about dance and merriment, wine and song, love and romance, but it doesn't feel self-centered. Like i said it feels like someone is living in a myth:

By contrast, by the time the late Renaissance rolled in it feels like the "human" element is much more pronounced. The secular world no longer feels like it is subordinate to the sacred, but rather it becomes almost dominant to the point even religious music essentially starts to sound secular. Likewise for the art. All of the religious artwork of the Renaissance masters feel more pagan than they feel sacred to me.

[Mandryka]

@Opus131


Re Ars Subtilor, I've never understood the link to modernity -- but I've heard it said before, but I've never heard it fleshed out or argued for.

What I have heard argued is that early music is primarily concerned with small phrases and details, rather than long ideas and phrases, and that that's something which it has in common with modern music. This came up in a conversation with someone who was part of the Hilliard Ensemble no less, and he used it as an explanation of why  many performers of early music also perform contemporary music.

I'll think about what you say about myth and secular medieval music.