Beethoven Violin Concerto

[Reverend Bong]

    I think Szeryng at best when he plays Bach, Brahms. Despite his impeccable technique, sound and musical taste, he suffers from the worst problem of soloist: faceless interpretation. All of his account is same, good but hardly memorable, especially when his accompalish conductors are also faceless like Haitink and Isserstedt. The one with Thibaud is more interesting despite dated sound because Thibaud's accompany  has some individual, sensitive and colorful touch (though imprecise)  and Szeryng is young and plays with more fire

Very useful reply, thank you for that.  That is precisely what I dislike about many recordings of this concerto and a very helpful comment as a result.  I am keen to add to my collection of recordings that show a real personal understanding of this surprisingly protean work.  Schneiderhan brings out an ineffable serenity, Krebbers a songlike beauty, Hubermann a unique kind of writhing madness.  All these three have a unique insight into the work and can convey it to me, I couldn't agree more with you that 'faceless interpretation' is the worst fault of the soloist.

[DavidRoss]

Schneiderhan brings out an ineffable serenity, Krebbers a songlike beauty, Hubermann a unique kind of writhing madness.

None of whom I've heard in this; all of whom your prose now encourages me to hear. Thanks again.

[Daverz]

I love this work and have recordings by Schneiderhan, Heifetz, Milstein, Kogan, Oistrakh and Suk, but would be perfectly happy if Francescatti/Walter were the only recording I had.

[Reverend Bong]

would be perfectly happy if Francescatti/Walter were the only recording I had.

It's on my mental shopping list.
I'm just sitting down to an obscure one: Erich Röhn, Furtwangler, BPO, live 9th January 1944. The bootleg looking LP is issued by 'I Grandi Interpreti' - never heard of them.  IGI-364.  Gatefold album, second disc is Strauss, interior of gatefold is blank white, no notes, nothing.  On the front it says 'Wilhelm Furtwangler's last concert at the "Philharmonie"'. Anyone know anything about this?

[kishnevi]

Yes, I have several versions in my collection (always a filler or part of a set), and it's deadly dull in the piano incarnation.  Stick to the violin version.

Having finally obtained a recording of the piano version---I wouldn't call it dull, but the absence of the violin is too notable.  Perhaps because my ears have been trained on the "original'--but I kept hearing in my mental ear the violin as the piano soloist was playing, and the piano just couldn't match.

The recording, btw, features Amadeus Webersinke as pianist with Masur conducting the Leipzipg Gewandhaus, in a box set from Edel Classics [Ludwig van Beethoven;  Unbekannte Meisterwerke] I got from JPC late last spring and am now finally getting around to playing for a first listen.  The percussionist who did the honors on the kettledrum gets his own credit here, btw--Karl Mehlig, who is as completely unknown to me as Webersinke. 

[mjwal]

It's on my mental shopping list.
I'm just sitting down to an obscure one: Erich Röhn, Furtwangler, BPO, live 9th January 1944. The bootleg looking LP is issued by 'I Grandi Interpreti' - never heard of them.  IGI-364.  Gatefold album, second disc is Strauss, interior of gatefold is blank white, no notes, nothing.  On the front it says 'Wilhelm Furtwangler's last concert at the "Philharmonie"'. Anyone know anything about this?

It's not so obscure, having been issued by DG. The old Philharmonie was bombed on the 31st of January, 1944. F., who was only a guest conductor, never conducted there again. I have heard it and was not bowled over by Röhn, the Konzertmeister of the BPO - very good but not a revelation - but Furtwängler is very dynamic here. One can also listen to it on YouTube.

[Reverend Bong]

It's not so obscure, having been issued by DG.

- indeed.  Obscured only by my ignorance and the extremely bootleg-pressed-in-the-basement presentation of this LP.

However I felt more positive about Rohn than you, there's a piercing sweetness to his tone that I loved.  Made me feel like Teresa of Avila.

[DavidRoss]

Schneiderhan brings out an ineffable serenity, Krebbers a songlike beauty, Hubermann a unique kind of writhing madness.

None of whom I've heard in this; all of whom your prose now encourages me to hear. Thanks again.

Well, I found Schneiderhan and Hubermann on line and liked them quite a bit. But I didn't feel compelled to buy them. However, after hearing it once I just bought Isabelle Faust's new recording, and not just for the splendid Beethoven with Abbado and his band, but also for the top-notch Berg. This issue deserves all the accolades it's received, including Gramophone's nod as best concerto recording of the year -- and there's nothing English or even British about it!

[San Antone]

None of whom I've heard in this; all of whom your prose now encourages me to hear. Thanks again.

Well, I found Schneiderhan and Hubermann on line and liked them quite a bit. But I didn't feel compelled to buy them. However, after hearing it once I just bought Isabelle Faust's new recording, and not just for the splendid Beethoven with Abbado and his band, but also for the top-notch Berg. This issue deserves all the accolades it's received, including Gramophone's nod as best concerto recording of the year -- and there's nothing English or even British about it!

I agree Faust is excellent in the Berg.  She consistently impresses me with her overall excellence across a wide spectrum of repertory.

[DavidRoss]

I agree Faust is excellent in the Berg.  She consistently impresses me with her overall excellence across a wide spectrum of repertory.

Aye. She's also a fine looking woman who impresses me (along with her label) by not marketing herself as a cheap sexpot ... or even an expensive one! And all the chamber music I've heard with her and Melnikov and Queyras impresses me also, not just in her sensitive ensemble play, but also in her sterling choice of colleagues.

[Reverend Bong]

I agree Faust is excellent in the Berg.  She consistently impresses me with her overall excellence across a wide spectrum of repertory.

Yes, I bought this on the strength of forum recommendations and was riveted by the Berg which I didn't
know. As many others have said it's an extraordinary pairing, the contrast really makes you think about what music is.  However, remarkable though she was in the Berg, I wouldn't put her in the top flight for the Beethoven concerto.  There's certainly no comparison with the effortless floating brilliance of Schneiderhan.  My current listening is Zehetmair, again on the strength of this forum, and I love it, it's like hearing the work for the first time. 

Is it just my limited experience, or is there generally more impact to PI percussion? I noticed it not only in the Zehetmair but also with the splendid Pinnock Fireworks Music which we have been playing in memory of Mr Fawkes.

[jlaurson]

My current listening is Zehetmair, again on the strength of this forum, and I love it, it's like hearing the work for the first time. 

Is it just my limited experience, or is there generally more impact to PI percussion? ...

Very gratifying to read that; that was exactly my impression... and still is. Dip Your Ears, No. 50 (Zehetmair's Beethoven)

Percussion stands out for two reasons: unpadded wooden sticks are used... What adds to the impression of the timpanist standing in your living room with this recording is the fact that Bruggen/Zehetmair use the Beethoven-Schneiderhahn cadenza, which uses the timpani extensively (and stems from op.61a).

[DavidA]

The Beethoven is IMO the greatest of all violin concertos and maybe the greatest work in concerto form. Obviously that is just my subjective opinion but every time I listen to it I am struck between the power and lyricism of the music\ in equal measure. A work such as this can take many interpretations but I am convinced that an over-reverent approach with slow tempi (especially in the first movement) can kill it. I used to have an LP of Joseph Suk's performance with Boult and while the playing is beautiful it seems the tempo of the first movement is too broad. A modern performance that falls into this trap is the Vengerov - horribly slow. Beethoven marked it Allegro ma non troppo - ie quick but not too quick, so a relatively brisk tempo is what he intended. However, the work can take many different approaches.
Performances I own include:
Heifetz \ Munch - I learned the work from this one as it was the first I owned on mono LP. A fabulous performance which was considered too brisk in its day. How critical opinion changes! Heifetz is in a class of his own as a player and the performance is full of drama while lyrical at the same time.
Heifetz \ Toscanini - again a fabulous performance but in one of the most unpleasant recordings ever. The Latest Naxos incarnation has improved the sound somewhat but you still have to use your imagination.
Menuhin \ Furtwangler - a great performance in a different style. Although Menuhin is slower in the first movement he is never dragging.
Schneiderhan \ Jochum - not bad but not for me the equal of the other two.
Kennedy / Tennstedt - bought it in a sale. Interesting. Nige prolongs the first movement but it somehow comes off. There is some supreme fiddling here. however, ignore Kennedy's silly sleeve note. He really should stick to playing the violin.
Kremer / Harnoncourt - really wonderful performance ruined by the fact that Kremer uses a ridiculous cadenza with piano accompaniment. Might have been OK as a once-off but irritates greatly on repeated listening.
Faust / Abbad0 - to my mind the best modern performance. Absolutely superbly played and accompanied. Seems to combine the best of both worlds between period and traditional. The Berg on the reverse is less my cup of tea but makes an interesting coupling.

[aligreto]

I attended a performance of the Beethoven Violin Concerto last night and this prompted me to take stock of the versions of this work in my collection;


Belohlavek / Prague Philharmonic – soloist Faust [Harmonia Mundi]
van Beinum / Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam – soloist Grumiaux [Philips]
Bruggen / Orchestra of the 18th Century – soloist Zehetmair [Philips]
Cluytens / French National Radio Orchestra – soloist Oistrakh [EMI]
Davis / Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam – soloist Grumiaux [Philips]
Galliera / New Philharmonia Orchestra, soloist Grumiaux [Philips]
Gauk / Moscow State Orchestra – soloist Oistrakh [Allegro]
Haitink / Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam – soloist Krebbers [Philips]
Jochum / Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra – soloist Schneiderhan [DG]
von Karajan / Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra – soloist Ferras [DG]
Konwitschny / Czech Philharmonic Orchestra – soloist Suk [Supraphon]
Munch / Boston Philharmonic – soloist Heifetz [RCA]
Munch / Boston Symphony Orchestra – soloist Heifetz [HMV]
Steinberg / Pittsburg Symphony Orchestra – soloist Milstein [EMI]
Walter / Columbia Symphony Orchestra – soloist Francescatti [Sony]
Whyte / BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra – soloist Menuhin [BBC]
Zinmann / Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich – soloist Tetzlaff [Arte Nova]


Are there any essential recordings/performances in your opinion that are missing from the above list?
What recommendations would you make for this work based on your own preferences?

If this has already been covered before then I would be obliged if someone coud direct me in the proper direction.

[Pat B]

I have about that many recordings -- and not much overlap with your collection (Schneiderhan, Heifetz, Milstein-Steinberg). Schneiderhan and Milstein are among my favorites.

My tip-top favorite is Vera Beths with Tafelmusik. It's not universally loved though. It is fast, and one might wish, at times, for more character from the orchestra, but the climaxes are exuberant and among my favorite moments of recorded music.

Another interesting one is Kremer with Marriner. He plays controversial cadenzas by Schnittke. I like them. (I haven't heard his later recording with Harnoncourt.)

Speaking of unusual cadenzas, I never warmed to Kennedy's recording with Tennstedt. For one thing, the producer decided not to edit out a round of mid-performance applause. I don't get too bothered by that at concerts, but on record it is very annoying.

What are your favorites?

[aligreto]

I have about that many recordings -- and not much overlap with your collection (Schneiderhan, Heifetz, Milstein-Steinberg). Schneiderhan and Milstein are among my favorites.

My tip-top favorite is Vera Beths with Tafelmusik. It's not universally loved though. It is fast, and one might wish, at times, for more character from the orchestra, but the climaxes are exuberant and among my favorite moments of recorded music.

Another interesting one is Kremer with Marriner. He plays controversial cadenzas by Schnittke. I like them. (I haven't heard his later recording with Harnoncourt.)

Speaking of unusual cadenzas, I never warmed to Kennedy's recording with Tennstedt. For one thing, the producer decided not to edit out a round of mid-performance applause. I don't get too bothered by that at concerts, but on record it is very annoying.

What are your favorites?

Thank you for your response. I do not know any of the recordings that you have mentioned so that is a good point from which to start to investigate new versions of this work.

For some reason it took me quite a long time to come to terms with this work. I really do not know why. Perhaps it was the length or the relative complexity of the work, or that long, meandering exposition. No matter what version that I listened to I just could not seem to grasp the architecture or the "meaning" of this concerto. Then I bought the Zinmann / Tetzlaff and for some reason it just fell into place. I honestly cannot say whether or not it was this recording that did it or whether continued repetition finally unveied the work's charms; either way, the Zinmann holds a special place for me ever since. I now see this work to be the masterpiece that it is and it has subsequently become my favourite violin concerto. It is interesting sometimes, the way that these things work out. However, If I could keep just one I think that I would opt for the Galliera / Grumiaux and the Konwitschny / Suk gets an honourable mention.

[North Star]

You might like this one, where Kopatchinskaja plays the piano cadenza, with multi-tracking.
[asin]B0029XIWC4[/asin]

[aligreto]

You might like this one, where Kopatchinskaja plays the piano cadenza, with multi-tracking.
[asin]B0029XIWC4[/asin]

Thank you for that....and Herreweghe directing; interesting.

[king ubu]

mine are:

Fritz Kreisler, Staatskapelle Berlin, Leo Blech, 1926 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Fritz Kreisler, London Philharmonic Orchestra, John Barbirolli, 1936 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Jascha Heifetz, NBC Symphony Orchestra, Arturo Toscanini, 1940 (cadenzas: Auer/Joachim, arr. Heifetz)
Erica Morini, New York Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra, Vladimir Golschmann, live 1944
Zino Francescatti, Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire, André Cluytens, live 1946
Joseph Szigeti, New York Philharmonic, Bruno Walter, 1947
Yehudi Menuhin, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Wilhelm Furtwängler, 1947 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Ginette Neveu, Southwest German Radio Orchestra (Baden-Baden), Hans Rosbaud, 1949
Szymon Goldberg, New York Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra, Dimitri Mitropoulos, live 1950
Yehudi Menuhin, Philharmonia Orchestra, Wilhelm Furtwängler, 1953 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Berliner Philharmoniker, Wilhlem Furtwängler, 1953
David Oistrakh, Stockholm Festival Orchestra, Sixten Ehrling, 1954
Jascha Heifetz, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Charles Munch, 1955 (cadenzas: Joachim/Heifetz)
Nathan Milstein, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, William Steinberg, 1955
Arthur Grumiaux, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Eduard van Beinum, 1957
Ida Haendel, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Karel Ancerl, live 1957
David Oistrakh, Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française, André Cluytens, 1958
Berl Senofksy, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Pierre Monteux, live 1958
Christian Ferras, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Malcolm Sargent, 1959
Yehudi Menuhin, Wiener Philharmoniker, Constantin Silvestri, 1960
Isaac Stern, New York Philharmonic, Leonard Bernstein, 1961 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
David Oistrakh, Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, 1962
Arthur Grumiaux, New Philharmonia Orchestra, Alceo Galliera, 1966
Christian Ferras, Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan, 1967
Leonid Kogan, USSR State TV & Radio Symphony Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, live 1970
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, Yehudi Menuhin, 1971
Isaac Stern, New York Philharmonic, Daniel Barenboim, 1975
Hilary Hahn, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, David Zinman, 1998
Viktoria Mullova, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, John Eliot Gardiner, 2002
Christian Tetzlaff, Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich, David Zinman, 2005
Patricia Kopatchinskaja, Orchestre des Champs-Elysées, Philippe Herreweghe, 2008

some, I've not yet listened ... favourites include Mullova, Ferras and Neveu. And yeah, I enjoy the PatKop/Herreweghe one, too!

[aligreto]

mine are:

Fritz Kreisler, Staatskapelle Berlin, Leo Blech, 1926 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Fritz Kreisler, London Philharmonic Orchestra, John Barbirolli, 1936 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Jascha Heifetz, NBC Symphony Orchestra, Arturo Toscanini, 1940 (cadenzas: Auer/Joachim, arr. Heifetz)
Erica Morini, New York Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra, Vladimir Golschmann, live 1944
Zino Francescatti, Orchestre de la Société des Concerts du Conservatoire, André Cluytens, live 1946
Joseph Szigeti, New York Philharmonic, Bruno Walter, 1947
Yehudi Menuhin, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Wilhelm Furtwängler, 1947 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Ginette Neveu, Southwest German Radio Orchestra (Baden-Baden), Hans Rosbaud, 1949
Szymon Goldberg, New York Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra, Dimitri Mitropoulos, live 1950
Yehudi Menuhin, Philharmonia Orchestra, Wilhelm Furtwängler, 1953 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Berliner Philharmoniker, Wilhlem Furtwängler, 1953
David Oistrakh, Stockholm Festival Orchestra, Sixten Ehrling, 1954
Jascha Heifetz, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Charles Munch, 1955 (cadenzas: Joachim/Heifetz)
Nathan Milstein, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, William Steinberg, 1955
Arthur Grumiaux, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Eduard van Beinum, 1957
Ida Haendel, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Karel Ancerl, live 1957
David Oistrakh, Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française, André Cluytens, 1958
Berl Senofksy, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Pierre Monteux, live 1958
Christian Ferras, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Malcolm Sargent, 1959
Yehudi Menuhin, Wiener Philharmoniker, Constantin Silvestri, 1960
Isaac Stern, New York Philharmonic, Leonard Bernstein, 1961 (cadenzas: Kreisler)
David Oistrakh, Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, 1962
Arthur Grumiaux, New Philharmonia Orchestra, Alceo Galliera, 1966
Christian Ferras, Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert von Karajan, 1967
Leonid Kogan, USSR State TV & Radio Symphony Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, live 1970
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, Yehudi Menuhin, 1971
Isaac Stern, New York Philharmonic, Daniel Barenboim, 1975
Hilary Hahn, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, David Zinman, 1998
Viktoria Mullova, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, John Eliot Gardiner, 2002
Christian Tetzlaff, Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich, David Zinman, 2005
Patricia Kopatchinskaja, Orchestre des Champs-Elysées, Philippe Herreweghe, 2008

some, I've not yet listened ... favourites include Mullova, Ferras and Neveu. And yeah, I enjoy the PatKop/Herreweghe one, too!

Thank you for that; it is a considerable collection.
I have been considering the Mullova / Gardiner.