Math Question

[Philoctetes]

I have to take Business Calculus or Finite Mathematics for school.

I intend to take actual Calculus after this, but currently am unable to do that, for reasons not worth mentioning.

Which of the two choices would be the most practical?

Thanks.

[DavidW]

The first, finite or discrete math is a waste of time told to me by people that wasted their time taking it!   At many schools business or brief calculus is usually mandatory.

[Opus106]

More like academics, rather than maths.

By school, do you mean "school" school or are you at a university? If the latter, what degree are you currently pursuing? And more importantly, what are you planning to pursue once you finish your degree?

Business calculus, I'm assuming, will teach you methods that are applied in economics and such, and it's unlikely that it might be used anywhere else outside the field. (Could you list out a few topics?) I haven't studied such a topic myself, so you should wait for an opinion from someone who has.

Discrete, or Finite, mathematics, on the other hand, is a topic that has larger applicability, meaning varied fields, although it will be very useful -- a necessity, in fact -- if you are planning to go for a degree in computer science, say.

Having said that, and not to belittle the collective wisdom of the forum members here, I would like to point out to you this place. Many of the members there are in academia presently -- either as members of the faculty, or as students, or floating somewhere in the abyss in-between the two -- and I'm sure you will receive many helpful replies regarding not just this but any other questions that you may have regarding science and academics. (Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are still in high-school. )

[Philoctetes]

@ Opus106

I'm a university, majoring in Economics. After university I'd like to get a job either on the international side of things or working doing something like bond rating, all on the macro level.

Finite Mathematics
This course is intended for students in business, economics, or social and life sciences with applications from these fields. Topics covered include vectors, determinants, matrices, systems of inequalities, linear programming, simplex method, logic and Boolean algebra, sets and counting, probability theory, stochastic processes, Markov processes and the mathematics of finance

Business Calculus
This course presents an elementary treatment of topics from differential and integral calculus. It is intended primarily for students in the fields of business and social science


Thanks for the link.

[Opus106]

I'm a university, majoring in Economics. After university I'd like to get a job either on the international side of things or working doing something like bond rating, all on the macro level.

Business Calculus
This course presents an elementary treatment of topics from differential and integral calculus. It is intended primarily for students in the fields of business and social science

I see. Seems to be watered-down Calculus I... perhaps you can use it to familiarise yourself with the basics before you take on the calculus-proper course. But, don't take my word for it, because the last time Economics and I came together, was more than 10 years ago, before high-school, during a qualitative course at the most elementary level imaginable.

[oabmarcus]

I doubled majored in math and Economics (plus a little finance on the side), so you've found the right person to answer your questions

I'm a university, majoring in Economics. After university I'd like to get a job either on the international side of things or working doing something like bond rating, all on the macro level.

Rating agencies, like Moody's, S&P or Fitch are generally looked down upon by people working on Wall Street. I presume you want to work for one of those firms? There is a belief on Wallstreet that only the talentless hacks end up in Rating agencies. Smart guys go into investment banking.

Finite Mathematics
This course is intended for students in business, economics, or social and life sciences with applications from these fields. Topics covered include vectors, determinants, matrices, systems of inequalities, linear programming, simplex method, logic and Boolean algebra, sets and counting, probability theory, stochastic processes, Markov processes and the mathematics of finance

That's awfully a lot of topics to be cover in one course, is this course a semester long? For
"business" uses, taking partial derivatives and doing double intergals is pretty useless. So, finite math might have more application. But only so if you are a Quant or someone who does computer modeling. I don't know if a Bond rater really needs to know that much on finite math, to my limited knowledge, a typical bond/equity rater looks at things like financial statements and prospectuses.

Business Calculus
This course presents an elementary treatment of topics from differential and integral calculus. It is intended primarily for students in the fields of business and social science

I think taking this course will benefit you in completing your economics degree. Since upper level Econ courses requires familiarity with calculus (partial differentiation mostly, lagrange multipliers) nothing terribly difficult.

[oabmarcus]

I see. Seems to be watered-down Calculus I... perhaps you can use it to familiarise yourself with the basics before you take on the calculus-proper course. But, don't take my word for it, because the last time Economics and I came together, was more than 10 years ago, before high-school, during a qualitative course at the most elementary level imaginable.

I think the title "business" calculus is a good hint that it is MUCH MUCH easier than actual Cal I,II,III. But, most people who aren't math or pre-engineer majors can't afford to take so many courses that they don't need.

[oabmarcus]

Having said that, and not to belittle the collective wisdom of the forum members here, I would like to point out to you this place. Many of the members there are in academia presently -- either as members of the faculty, or as students, or floating somewhere in the abyss in-between the two -- and I'm sure you will receive many helpful replies regarding not just this but any other questions that you may have regarding science and academics. (Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are still in high-school. )

Lots of smart people there, but I got through all my math stuff pretty much on my own. Since I can't really ask them for help on final exams.

[DavidW]

That's awfully a lot of topics to be cover in one course, is this course a semester long?

That's why that class is usually a waste of time.  Different school sure, but I remember my friends complaining that it was alot of topics done with little depth and no explanation for how it applies to their field.  This is what happens when it's a math class teaching to a broad range of students-- cs, econ, various engineering fields etc Applied math classes should just be taken from in the department of your major, those typically do a better job of teaching it in the form of the application that the student needs to see.  I took plenty of upper level math classes that were half a waste because they were neither as deep as a pure class would be, nor as useful as a true applied class would be.  I think that this is just the result of math departments getting greedy.  Teach everyone calculus, linear algebra, and des and then just leave the rest for teaching your students only.  Sheesh.

[DavidW]

Having said that, and not to belittle the collective wisdom of the forum members here, I would like to point out to you this place. Many of the members there are in academia presently -- either as members of the faculty, or as students, or floating somewhere in the abyss in-between the two -- and I'm sure you will receive many helpful replies regarding not just this but any other questions that you may have regarding science and academics. (Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are still in high-school. )

That is bad advice.  I mean really bad advice.  Most of the active posters are hardcore physicists and mathematicians.  These people commonly try to mislead others into studying advanced treatments of basic math (like Spivak's calculus for instance) as the only real way that explains it.  The kind of advice that Philo would get over there would help a budding mathematician but not an econ major.

If Philo wants good advice he probably should listen to oabmarcus, or talk to his advisor but not go to the physicsforum.

[Daverz]

I have to take Business Calculus or Finite Mathematics for school.

I intend to take actual Calculus after this, but currently am unable to do that, for reasons not worth mentioning.

Which of the two choices would be the most practical?

Are those your only choices.  What kind of math background do you have?  Have you had a college-level algebra, trig, or pre-calculus course?

I agree that the discrete math course may not be directly useful.

[Philoctetes]

@ Daverz Yes, those are my only choices. I've had Algebra and Trig.

@ oabmarcus

"I doubled majored in math and Economics (plus a little finance on the side), so you've found the right person to answer your questions "

I think you are. What do you do with your degree?

"Rating agencies, like Moody's, S&P or Fitch are generally looked down upon by people working on Wall Street. I presume you want to work for one of those firms? There is a belief on Wallstreet that only the talentless hacks end up in Rating agencies. Smart guys go into investment banking."

Interesting. I did not know that. I'm really only interested in the macro parts of economics. Investment banking doesn't interest me at all. I suppose I really only find one part of bond rating interesting, and that is in regards to sovereign debt.

"I think taking this course will benefit you in completing your economics degree. Since upper level Econ courses requires familiarity with calculus (partial differentiation mostly, lagrange multipliers) nothing terribly difficult."

Thanks a ton. I think that is the direction that I will go.

@ everyone

Thanks for all of the super helpful information.

[oabmarcus]

I think you are. What do you do with your degree?

I am preparing for the actuary exams.

"Rating agencies, like Moody's, S&P or Fitch are generally looked down upon by people working on Wall Street. I presume you want to work for one of those firms? There is a belief on Wallstreet that only the talentless hacks end up in Rating agencies. Smart guys go into investment banking."

Interesting. I did not know that. I'm really only interested in the macro parts of economics. Investment banking doesn't interest me at all. I suppose I really only find one part of bond rating interesting, and that is in regards to sovereign debt.

It's all about the money! Sure, you  make "decent" money by average joe standards working for rating agencies. IF you want to go for the big bucks, stuff you can retire on quick, finance is a better bet.

"I think taking this course will benefit you in completing your economics degree. Since upper level Econ courses requires familiarity with calculus (partial differentiation mostly, lagrange multipliers) nothing terribly difficult."

Thanks a ton. I think that is the direction that I will go.

@ everyone

Thanks for all of the super helpful information.

you are welcome

[Opus106]

That is bad advice.  I mean really bad advice.  Most of the active posters are hardcore physicists and mathematicians.  These people commonly try to mislead others into studying advanced treatments of basic math (like Spivak's calculus for instance) as the only real way that explains it.  The kind of advice that Philo would get over there would help a budding mathematician but not an econ major.

If Philo wants good advice he probably should listen to oabmarcus, or talk to his advisor but not go to the physicsforum.

Well, I didn't know he was an Economics major when I posted that. Anyway, I'm glad that he found oabmarcus.

[Coopmv]

I have to take Business Calculus or Finite Mathematics for school.

I intend to take actual Calculus after this, but currently am unable to do that, for reasons not worth mentioning.

Which of the two choices would be the most practical?

Thanks.

Take full 2-years of calculus, i.e. 4 semesters.  If you plan on going into econometric modeling in the future, you will need all the math you can learn.

[oabmarcus]

Take full 2-years of calculus, i.e. 4 semesters.  If you plan on going into econometric modeling in the future, you will need all the math you can learn.

well, let's just hope he has enough time left before graduation to accommodate 2 years of calculus, because that would be my #1 recommendation too.

[Philoctetes]

Take full 2-years of calculus, i.e. 4 semesters.  If you plan on going into econometric modeling in the future, you will need all the math you can learn.

That's actually my plan. I plan to take at least 3 levels of calculus, and probably some more math beyond that.