Why the string dominance?

[some guy]

Ciel, not sure how you got "[you should] predominantly listen to music from the last 100 years" from my reminder of what year it is now. I thought the coupling of particular words from your previous post with that reminder would have led to a very different conclusion.

That brings up a very interesting point. Not sure this is the ideal place to mention it, but as it's come up.... I've noticed many times before that both positive comments about contemporary music and criticisms of negative remarks about contemporary music get translated into "You should be listening to contemporary music," to which "I don't have to" is certainly an understandable response. No one has to do anything.

But that wasn't what I was suggesting. No. You said something about a particular list without any knowledge of the items on that list* and then drew a very questionable conclusion. I was suggesting that maybe in 2010 those kinds of conclusions are perhaps less defensible than they would have been in, say, 1960.

You don't have to listen to any of the music I mentioned, but you do have to have listened to it before you can have any opinions about it. Or at least before you express any of those opinions!! (I know almost nothing about physics--just enough to be really stupid about it--so I can have no valid opinions about string theory. For instance. Same for Chinese politics.)

*I always use the "Preview" option. Amazing what doing that uncovers! And I noticed that this conclusion of mine is a VERY questionable one!!!

[Ciel_Rouge]

Well, I am honestly not sure what you meant by "it's 2010" and my remarks being more suitable for the 1960s so please clarify that for me My criticism is based on a few pieces that I have previewed on YT - I tried a bit of Stockhausen and a good number of other composers who go along those lines. I also listened to a lecture given by Stockhausen to his students and an interview given by a composer whose name sort of eludes me now but he liked mutilated pianos and traffic noise.

Well, what they had to say was very enjoyable intelectually but their music seemed totally not my cup of tea. Not because it was strange or ugly, but because they got to the point of using random sounds which is possible even without having a composer I definitely prefer non-mutilated pianos. Maybe it would be interesting to modify the piano and get interesting new sounds but simply ruining it seems very repulsive to me.


I suppose my criticism has nothing to do with resistance to novely which you probably suggest. There were pieces composed in later times by Kilar or Górecki, which seemed much more appealing to me .

[Scarpia]

Scarpia: quite right, once I get past Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin and Rach, I get pretty much clueless. Of course there is also Bach and Scarlatti played on the piano, but they are not true piano pieces - sort of going beyond harpsichord to a "future piano". Thanks all for the composer recommendations, I sort of went through such lists on Wiki but pointers from actual people seem a bit more of value to me than automatic lists from Wiki, without any prioritizing or personal insight.

I would say Faure is a composer of piano solo music that richly rewards the effort.  Ravel and Debussy wrote some richly evocative piano music.  I also think Brahms' music for solo piano is excellent, although it is doesn't seem to get the attention that I think it should.

[some guy]

Maybe it would be interesting to modify the piano and get interesting new sounds but simply ruining it seems very repulsive to me.

Well, there is a piece that calls for a piano to be burned. And another that calls for a piano to be dropped from a helicopter. But I wasn't referring to those.

I can comfort you by pointing out that Ross Bolleter doesn't ruin pianos. He plays pianos that have already been ruined. Indeed, he "rescues" ruined pianos (pianos beyond repair) and has set aside a park for them where they can continue to disintegrate naturally. (And be played, yes, while nature takes its course.)

[Air]

How about Tchaikovsky? His Seasons are pretty much all there is to his solo piano music and sure, he wrote 3 piano concerti but I still think his symphonic output seems much more prominent overall.

Tchaikovsky also wrote over 100 piano works, which range the entire span of his creative life.

[Ciel_Rouge]

RexRichter: does it say 100 SOLO piano works? I suppose they included all chamber and piano concerti etc., otherwise Tchaikovsky would be another Chopin I recall someone on the radio stating that Tchaikovsky did not write much for the piano so I am not sure about what Wiki says.

some guy: I heard about a guy in Germany who burns pianos that are beyond repair. I still find it highly repulsive to do such a thing. Even if they cannot make decent sounds, they could still be displayed for someone to see. Burning them is like burning books or paintings. Besides, a burnt piano cannot be used for reverse engineering and building replicas.

[some guy]

Ciel, I think you'll find that the piano burning is done for the sounds it makes. All the things that happen while a piano is burning release sounds, sounds that are basically unavailable by any other means. There may be other motives at play, but the only thing I'm interested in are the sonic results. Oh, and the theater. Be fair, a burning piano is a theatrical event.

[Timmyb]

Five more great piano composers.
Haydn,Scharwenka,Bortkiewicz,Mussorgsky,Ornstein.

[Ciel_Rouge]

All the things that happen while a piano is burning release sounds, sounds that are basically unavailable by any other means.

The sounds of a viola being crushed by a big ass sitting on it are also unavailable by any other means  And yet, they seem far less interesting than the sound of it being played. BTW, the way you said that... it sounded a lot like Stockhausen I suppose you listened to his lectures a bit too much ;-) Similarly, the strings of a burnt piano may make some sound but I still think displaying the piano to be viewed and touched by people or taking it apart and making a replica would be far more interesting than destroying it in a blunt way.

[Franco]

I am fascinated by the idea of burning a piano and what sounds it would produce.  A fantastic concept for a composition - each piano would produce a different work - I wonder how long they would last on average? 

But why limit it to pianos that are otherwise useless?  It would be so much more stunning to burn a brand new, just off the floor, never-before-played, 9' Steinway concert grand.

[Maciek]

RexRichter: does it say 100 SOLO piano works? I suppose they included all chamber and piano concerti etc., otherwise Tchaikovsky would be another Chopin I recall someone on the radio stating that Tchaikovsky did not write much for the piano so I am not sure about what Wiki says.

I'm not sure how much is "much". But his complete solo piano works take up about 7 CDs (see the Postnikova set) just go to this IMSLP list and sort it by "forces" to get an idea of how many pieces there are. Quite many.

[Ciel_Rouge]

Franco: No need to do that, you can always find idiots on YouTube and you can see that. I suppose after that they should all get piano lessons and discover how much joy a piano can give to a sensitive person. However, I am fascinated with the idea of burning a tv. The cultural loss would equal zero or it could even be a cultural gain. I can come where you live Franco and we can burn a tv set together But I would prefer an old tv because the new ones are also used for watching films, which sometimes have some cultural value

Maciek: are those piano pieces available in multiple recordings or only as scores on paper or one huge box set recorded only once? What is the relative familiarity with Tchaikovsky solo piano vs. Chopin solo piano?

[Maciek]

Maciek: are those piano pieces available in multiple recordings or only as scores on paper or one huge box set recorded only once? What is the relative familiarity with Tchaikovsky solo piano vs. Chopin solo piano?

No abundance of recordings, AFAIK. From what I can see, except for the Postnikova set, Michael Ponti seems to be the only pianist who tried, but I'm not sure if he ever made it through all of them? Which sort of answers your other question.

[mc ukrneal]

As the OP I have to clarify something - what I really meant was SOLO piano. I am aware that it is rather ubiquitous in chamber and there is a significant number of piano concerti but what I am really after right now are SOLO piano pieces.

Cristofori, how about Tchaikovsky? His Seasons are pretty much all there is to his solo piano music and sure, he wrote 3 piano concerti but I still think his symphonic output seems much more prominent overall. On the other extreme, Chopin wrote only for piano, with some piano and cello being a rare exception. And what I am really having trouble with, is getting beyond Chopin in my quest for really outstanding and emotional pieces.

Sure there is lots of weird "random sound" kind of 20th century music with mutilated pianos and the like, but what I am really looking for is something comparable to Chopin's pieces in terms of emotionality, tunefulness and recognizability. I listened to all of Beethoven's piano sonatas as well as some Schubert but I am still looking for more.

Maybe there is a bit of a string dominance after all - there are very few really virtuosic performers for the piano while in a symphonic orchestra it is rather a combined effort of many performers and many instruments. And hence my impression that solo piano is still a bit under-represented in terms of the number of good recordings and especially live performances - I guess it is much easier to  find a symphonic concert to attend than to find a piano recital.

If you like Chopin, I think you might like John Field. He is less well known, but has some similarities to Chopin. I would recommend the Naxos Piano Volumes 1-2. You can at least check them out. Brahms has some wonderful solo pieces as well. Dan Lupu is a good interpreter of his music.

I've always enjoyed Gottschalk (some overlap on the period). He it not quite in the same style, though Hyperion have come out with 8 discs of his music (several of which may be available at Berkshire on the cheap). Hyperion has good samples if you want to check them out. He is off the beaten path a bit.

Tchaikovsky (as you referred to) and Grieg also have some wonderful music. For Tchaikovsky, you can get a good overview with Richter on Regis. For Grieg, I've enjoyed some of the Naxos collection (I've only gotten some of the earliest discs).

Finally, and perhaps the one you might actually find most interesting initially, Godowsky's Complete Studies on Chopin's Etudes. These are fascinating pieces if you like Chopin's etudes, and Hamelin has done a superb version of them complete. Since it is based on Chopin's music, I would think you would like these.

[Ciel_Rouge]

Thanks ukrneal, I like Chopin but I am also looking for anything beyond that and it does not have to be similar to Chopin's music. For example, I already tried some Ravel on YT and I like Ondine for example. I have stumbled upon a little bit of Gottschalk before and liked a few pieces too.

[mc ukrneal]

Thanks ukrneal, I like Chopin but I am also looking for anything beyond that and it does not have to be similar to Chopin's music. For example, I already tried some Ravel on YT and I like Ondine for example. I have stumbled upon a little bit of Gottschalk before and liked a few pieces too.

I thought is easier to start near Chopin. There is just so much out there - Grainger is one of my favorites, but he has a completely different style. Lots of tunes, many shorter pieces, although he also did some wonderful transcriptions. Nimbus has a 5 disc set. Alternatively, there are some good individual discs from Hyperion (Hamelin and Piers Lane both have discs) as well as discs from Grainger himself.

I really like a disc from Lyadov (Hyperion again). 

Just to comment on Tchaikovsky, in addition to the Postnikova set are several individual discs by Pletnev, the one I mentioned with Richter, and some transcriptions of the symphonies. There are many versions of the Seasons, which is the only piece (or group of pieces) that has gained traction in the repetoire. But his solo piano is not as good as his orcheatral pieces for the most part (in my opinion) even though I personally like many of them.

[jochanaan]

...Brahms has some wonderful solo pieces as well. Dan Lupu is a good interpreter of his music...

Hmmm, that's a pianist I've never heard of.  On the other hand, I've enjoyed some of Radu Lupu's Brahms recordings...

[mc ukrneal]

Hmmm, that's a pianist I've never heard of.  On the other hand, I've enjoyed some of Radu Lupu's Brahms recordings...

Oops. Sorry - that is who I meant.