Bach Six Partitas

[Mandryka]

Interesting, if I recall you like Rubsam in the Partitas? I went back to listen to Partita 4 in his lute harpsichord recording and found him more difficult (maybe this is separate from challenging). Both Tilney and him are slow, but Rubsam comes off as being much slower since the lute harpsichord has virtually no decay leaving for more "blank space" that makes this sound avant-garde.

It was after listening to the second partita that I reacted by saying that it was too challenging, it seemed totally lifeless, turgid. On the other hand I think Rubsam on lute harpsichord is full of life.


I've been listening to Leonhardt I today, made at about the same time as his second AoF. I think there are some very interesting things in there -- 3 for example.

[vers la flamme]

It was after listening to the second partita that I reacted by saying that it was too challenging, it seemed totally lifeless, turgid. On the other hand I think Rubsam on lute harpsichord is full of life.


I've been listening to Leonhardt I today, made at about the same time as his second AoF. I think there are some very interesting things in there -- 3 for example.

Is that Leonhardt on Virgin? That's the only harpsichord Partitas set I have. I'm quite satisfied with it, as Leonhardt can do no wrong in my book (though I am not crazy about his CPE Bach). That being said, my favorite partitas recordings come from pianists: András Schiff on ECM, David Fray on Virgin/Erato (sadly incomplete), Martha Argerich (who has only recorded the C minor, as far as I can tell, but I love it).

[staxomega]

Is that Leonhardt on Virgin? That's the only harpsichord Partitas set I have. I'm quite satisfied with it, as Leonhardt can do no wrong in my book (though I am not crazy about his CPE Bach). That being said, my favorite partitas recordings come from pianists: András Schiff on ECM, David Fray on Virgin/Erato (sadly incomplete), Martha Argerich (who has only recorded the C minor, as far as I can tell, but I love it).

The Virgin set from Leonhardt is fantastic. A big plus one for Schiff's recording on ECM, that might just be my favorite set on piano, though I'm quite fond of others like Maria Tipo and Gould.

Argerich has a new performance of the C minor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuPr9m98XQQ

[vers la flamme]

The Virgin set from Leonhardt is fantastic. A big plus one for Schiff's recording on ECM, that might just be my favorite set on piano, though I'm quite fond of others like Maria Tipo and Gould.

Argerich has a new performance of the C minor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuPr9m98XQQ

Nice, thanks; Martha is still killing it in her late 70s (age 80 now, 79 at the time of performance). I'd love to hear Gould play the partitas, I am firmly in the camp that enjoys Gould's Bach.

[Mandryka]

Is that Leonhardt on Virgin? That's the only harpsichord Partitas set I have.

No on DHM.

[Jo498]

Nice, thanks; Martha is still killing it in her late 70s (age 80 now, 79 at the time of performance). I'd love to hear Gould play the partitas, I am firmly in the camp that enjoys Gould's Bach.

The partitas are IMO among the best recordings by Gould, Bach or otherwise. (Unfortunately, the sound of 5+6 that were recorded first is rather mediocre)
I like most of his other Bach, but not as much as I did in earlier times (a lot of it was my introduction to the pieces). The other sets of suites are not as good as he lacks charm in the French suites and is also more mannered in the English suites, the WTC is also a mixed bag with some bizarre tempi (both fast and slow) and other mannerism side by side with convincing interpretations.

[milk]

It was after listening to the second partita that I reacted by saying that it was too challenging, it seemed totally lifeless, turgid. On the other hand I think Rubsam on lute harpsichord is full of life.


I've been listening to Leonhardt I today, made at about the same time as his second AoF. I think there are some very interesting things in there -- 3 for example.

I'd still be curious if you'd change your mind upon hearing more. I think Tilney has something to offer. I think it's there. But, admittedly, I haven't listened to it much since it came out. This is just from memory.

[prémont]

Is that Leonhardt on Virgin?

The Leonhardt/DHM partitas are examples of detailed HIP experimentation, while the EMI/Virgin set is more streamlined. Both recordings have their points.

[prémont]

I'd still be curious if you'd change your mind upon hearing more. I think Tilney has something to offer. I think it's there. But, admittedly, I haven't listened to it much since it came out. This is just from memory.

I have problems with Tilney's partitas too, not just partita two. Slow, yes lifeless and no feeling of dance at all.

[Mandryka]

Is that Leonhardt on Virgin? That's the only harpsichord Partitas set I have. I'm quite satisfied with it,

I prefer his DHM, more austere than the Virgin, less dancing and less fluid, less colourful and fewer contrasts, and more visionary. Some of it is on YouTube if you care to try

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqF0RQLJhM

[Mandryka]

I have problems with Tilney's partitas too, not just partita two. Slow, yes lifeless and no feeling of dance at all.

You didn't get on with his penultimate release, the contrapuntal Byrd, did you? I blow hot and cold about it.

[vers la flamme]

I must find the DHM Leonhardt Partitas; sounds awesome. I do generally prefer his work on DHM to that on Virgin, for whatever reason.

[milk]

I have problems with Tilney's partitas too, not just partita two. Slow, yes lifeless and no feeling of dance at all.

Do you think there might be movements that work? Tilney has always been kind of deliberate. I tried to listen to his Mozart a few years ago and couldn't understand what he was trying to do at all. But I like his early baroque. And I think he has some Bach that really works in an idiosyncratic way. I have to listen to his partitas again now. I remember thinking that some of the movements were beautiful.   

[Mandryka]

Esfahani's parti pris is that the six keyboard partitas are an attempt to transfer the sort of music which you would have heard in public places to the domestic keyboard. These are theatrical performances -- loud, dramatic, colourful, forceful. I don't like them; they are totally disorienting so there's an unpleasant feeling of dépaysement . But they are a force of nature and show that Esfahani is becoming a very interesting musician.

He says something really interesting in the booklet -- some food for thought.

. . . Likewise, there is a clear gradual progression in style from the first movement of the first partita, a prelude based m seventeenth-century improvisational techniques, to the last movement of the sixth, at face value a crotchety gigue with an archaic time signature which nonetheless destroys he entire notion of Baroque dance and ushers in modern music. Within Bach's tributes to the rich musical heritage of his forebears is a unique embedded provocation to somehow burn down the entire edifice of homage and amiable conversation with his contemporaries which he had used, ostensibly, to justify this publication.

[prémont]

You didn't get on with his penultimate release, the contrapuntal Byrd, did you? I blow hot and cold about it.

Do you think there might be movements that work? Tilney has always been kind of deliberate. I tried to listen to his Mozart a few years ago and couldn't understand what he was trying to do at all. But I like his early baroque. And I think he has some Bach that really works in an idiosyncratic way. I have to listen to his partitas again now. I remember thinking that some of the movements were beautiful.

Excuse my late answer. I had missed these posts.

Tilney's "Contrapuntal Byrd" as well as his late Bach partitas have something in common, which I would name a frozen quality. One feels no sign of life and everything feels to stand still (maybe overstated, but exaggeration promotes the understanding). I recall some late recordings by Otto Klemperer with similar qualities. Maybe it's the tempo you live in when you have past the eight decade, but to me it is depressing and sleep-promoting. Things may soon enough stop forever.

[milk]

Excuse my late answer. I had missed these posts.

Tilney's "Contrapuntal Byrd" as well as his late Bach partitas have something in common, which I would name a frozen quality. One feels no sign of life and everything feels to stand still (maybe overstated, but exaggeration promotes the understanding). I recall some late recordings by Otto Klemperer with similar qualities. Maybe it's the tempo you live in when you have past the eight decade, but to me it is depressing and sleep-promoting. Things may soon enough stop forever.

That makes it sound rather depressing. I'll get back to it some day. But I'm not rushing to hear it again I guess.

[prémont]

That makes it sound rather depressing. I'll get back to it some day. But I'm not rushing to hear it again I guess.

But I think you should listen to it again - or just parts of it. Maybe you hear it quite differently.

[milk]

But I think you should listen to it again - or just parts of it. Maybe you hear it quite differently.

Maybe so. I definitely liked something about it. It's a weird one. There are just so many options these days though.

[Mandryka]

Excuse my late answer. I had missed these posts.

Tilney's "Contrapuntal Byrd" as well as his late Bach partitas have something in common, which I would name a frozen quality. One feels no sign of life and everything feels to stand still (maybe overstated, but exaggeration promotes the understanding). I recall some late recordings by Otto Klemperer with similar qualities. Maybe it's the tempo you live in when you have past the eight decade, but to me it is depressing and sleep-promoting. Things may soon enough stop forever.

The frozen quality comes partly from the way he marks the pulse, it's as if he eschews any sense of the dance. I think this is clear if you compare how he plays the Quadran pavan on the Contrapuntal Byrd and then on the old Reflexe recording. The booklet essay for the partitas talks an awful lot about dance.

[milk]

The frozen quality comes partly from the way he marks the pulse, it's as if he eschews any sense of the dance. I think this is clear if you compare how he plays the Quadran pavan on the Contrapuntal Byrd and then on the old Reflexe recording. The booklet essay for the partitas talks an awful lot about dance.

Does Rubsam give a sense of dance in, for example, his French Suites? I'm just listening to Tilney's 6th partita now. The courante is otherworldly; he plays it in a higher register than it's normally played. Yes, it's very slow, it's the opposite of dance; it's dark. He follow it up with an air that duels between the lute stop and non-lute stop. Again, he's not interested in the air as the dance its name suggests. The sarabande is even more of a crush; it's played almost like a fantasia or something. I respect what Tilney does and I think it's austere. I admit I probably won't return to it soon.

Weiss is reliably good.