Nørgård's Niche

[snyprrr]

OK I've finally listened to the concerto (after owning the disc for years and totally ignoring it. See how this forum helps one to be an active listener?), and I must say it's a captivating work. That deep dark cadenza in the middle is a highlight, but there's lots of interesting stuff going on here.

I agree with snyprrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr's characterization, as somehow between Messiaen and Xenakis...but I feel the Xenakis side dominates slightly, due to an often aggressive and spiky sound.

The slightly "Javanese"-sounding coda also reminds me a bit of the ending of Lutoslawski's 3rd Sym...but there's no question Norgard is very much his own man stylistically. I look forward to going back to this one.

BTW, any1 want to give a rundown on PN's other concerti? I've got my eye on the ones for violin.

The Concerto in Due Tempi is perhaps one of Nørgård's most visceral works. Just make your way to that cadenza on the bottom octave of the piano halfway through the work and see for yourself. It doesn't have as much of that shimmer and sheen that you see in a lot of works written around that time, like the symphonies. It reminds me almost of his 7th symphony, written only a couple of years ago. Also, the addition of the "anti-soloist" in the alto-saxophone is particularly poignant. It goes really well with the jabbing figures in both the pianos and strings.

Both of you sound like you heard the exact same piece as I! There certainly is a forward movement to this piece that practically sweeps you along into its very unique soundworld. Hindemith as the Borg?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Both of you sound like you heard the exact same piece as I! There certainly is a forward movement to this piece that practically sweeps you along into its very unique soundworld.

You bet.    If I have time tonight, I plan to revisit the concerto and bask in that "very unique soundworld". (Makes me wonder what other great stuff I have in my collection that I haven't listened to yet.) I followed up the cto. by listening to the first mvt. of the 3rd Symphony. Snip, were you perchance reading Coleridge while listening to it? Something about your response reminds me:

Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

Hindemith as the Borg?

I don't quite get what you mean here 

[snyprrr]

You bet.    If I have time tonight, I plan to revisit the concerto and bask in that "very unique soundworld". (Makes me wonder what other great stuff I have in my collection that I haven't listened to yet.) I followed up the cto. by listening to the first mvt. of the 3rd Symphony. Snip, were you perchance reading Coleridge while listening to it? Something about your response reminds me:

Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!

I don't quite get what you mean here 

Yes, Shangri-la indeed!!


The other comment: I thought the PC was very... oh, gosh, maybe I shouldn't even try. I'm sure I won't convince anyone mentioning Hindemith in this Thread, haha! Maybe I meant that the PC was very well put together, like Hindemith's work ethic, but the 'sound' is closer to Gloria Coates's alien landscapes (the Klingon Princess!).

[mjwal]

Symphonies 3-7, check, SQs, check, haven't heard the piano concerto yet but will soon - anybody else know and appreciate (or not) Nuit des Hommes? I suppose that you need to be into Guillaume Apollinaire, but it really is the most marvellous evocation of the world that led up to WW1 and then the war itself, its dislocation, its annunciation of terror, je veux vivre inhumain, there's plenty of that late SQ style in it too together with eery electronically generated sounds, Wilhelm's lover Alice mutates into kAli, the goddess of blood and destruction - you get the idea, it's mad, sad and freaky, like parts of Gravity's Rainbow done by a Xenakis on absinthe and/or opium. It's in French but the booklet gives the texts in English and other languages.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

further Norgard exploration

As promised, I listened to the PC again. It was just as good as the first time. 

Then I listened to the 6th Symphony. I think I'm gradually getting more of a handle on it, but it is not easy music; not everything makes sense yet. BTW, does this piece remind anyone else of Carter's Symphonia? Overall conception and progression sounds very similar, and they were composed within a couple years of each other.

I've also put this disc in my shopping cart:



I capped off this Danish listening day with Holmboe's 2 scintillating brass quintets, played by Art of Brass Copenhagen.

[snyprrr]

Symphony 5





THIS IS AWESOME MUSIC!!!



The reviews kept saying this was his most enigmatic Symphony, but, to me it sounds like a giant transcribed drum solo! I almost got to the end before I had to turn it off, but, as one stream of continuous music, it is so mysterious and vigorous at the same time as to defy description. I hear all kinds of traces of Xenakean rigor, but the fantasy is Norgard's own, and it is wondrously complex and ear tingling the whole time. WOW!!

Messiaen on 10 hits of LSD is the best I can do! Watch out, this stuff might tap into your pineal! AWESOME!!!!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Symphony 5
THIS IS AWESOME MUSIC!!!

Well, I may have to add that one to my cart, too  I was slightly put off by some reviews I read, but if The Snip says it's AWESOME, maybe I'd better pay attention.

BTW, how's the 4th Symphony?

[snyprrr]

Well, I may have to add that one to my cart, too  I was slightly put off by some reviews I read, but if The Snip says it's AWESOME, maybe I'd better pay attention.

BTW, how's the 4th Symphony?

Hey, the whole cd is ka-pow-ee. Honestly, I can barely remember 4 after 5, but I was enjoying it in the car, I know that! I've still got Norgardian bubbles in my head from last night...wow, I wish I had time today ...

Honestly, if you read the same reviews on Amazon that I did (including our own CRCulver?), and then hear the piece, you might also wonder. I simply followed the music incident by incident and found it an incredible ride. It also starts very uniquely... it really just compels you along. ok, enough priase, haha!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Honestly, if you read the same reviews on Amazon that I did (including our own CRCulver?), and then hear the piece, you might also wonder. I simply followed the music incident by incident and found it an incredible ride. It also starts very uniquely... it really just compels you along. ok, enough priase, haha!

Yes, I read Culver's review. It left me thinking that this symphony is a little too "advanced" for someone who's not deeply into Norgard, and I'm still puzzling him out. On the other hand, I'm always up for a sonic adventure. 

Norgard seems like a very interesting composer, even when I don't like or understand what he's doing. I hear links to various other composers, but still a very distinctive voice of his own.

[snyprrr]

Yes, I read Culver's review. It left me thinking that this symphony is a little too "advanced" for someone who's not deeply into Norgard, and I'm still puzzling him out. On the other hand, I'm always up for a sonic adventure. 

Norgard seems like a very interesting composer, even when I don't like or understand what he's doing. I hear links to various other composers, but still a very distinctive voice of his own.

Norgard seems to be operating with the most amount of actual freedom of anyone I've heard. Kon-Tiki!

I think the problem with the 5th is that it actually delivers the goods,...and some of us aren't prepared for that!

I guess I'm resigned to getting the 6th ASAP!

[CRCulver]

I stand by my comment that the Fifth is Nørgård's most enigmatic symphony. To really understand the development of this symphony, one ought to be familiar with his 1950s works, Waves or I Ching for solo percussion, and the string quartet Tintinnabulary. The symphony is an expansion of the motifs and games of perception found there. It's a very intertextual piece -- it would be like listening to Berio's Sinfonia without knowing who Mahler is.

Now, you may enjoy the piece just as some bold musical flow, appealing to the same part of you that likes Xenakis' visceral impact, but that's not how the composer intended it to be heard. And Nørgård is sort of sensitive about people praising his work while missing the very elements he wanted to communicate (see his account of the night Luna was premiered, for instance). 

[ibanezmonster]

It's too bad the guy is behind the times technologically- if he weren't so, he could have easily joined the forum and posted a thing or two about his music, which would be an interesting read. (There is his website, which is very informative, but it would be more fun talking to him directly). 

[snyprrr]

I stand by my comment that the Fifth is Nørgård's most enigmatic symphony. To really understand the development of this symphony, one ought to be familiar with his 1950s works, Waves or I Ching for solo percussion, and the string quartet Tintinnabulary. The symphony is an expansion of the motifs and games of perception found there. It's a very intertextual piece -- it would be like listening to Berio's Sinfonia without knowing who Mahler is.

Now, you may enjoy the piece just as some bold musical flow, appealing to the same part of you that likes Xenakis' visceral impact, but that's not how the composer intended it to be heard. And Nørgård is sort of sensitive about people praising his work while missing the very elements he wanted to communicate (see his account of the night Luna was premiered, for instance).

I can appreciate that, but Norgard must understand that at some point in time, soooomeone will come across this cd as a lark, and will have to interpret his music without a 'programme', and may just like the music for the sounds hitting their ears.

Still, I remember from your review that you said one needed to hear the earlier Symphony 1, and so on, and, now I am intrigued to hear No.5 as Norgard intended.

And still also, I just found that I could 'follow' the argument from moment to moment, without 'knowing' anything, and the entire piece just came off as...well... a Masterpiece.

Surely, when you've gone as far 'out there' as Norgard has done here, don't you leave us common people behind? I mean, WHO WHO WHO would hear this thing for the first time, and say, "Gosh, there's that thing from I Ching"?... unless of course they had already been an acolyte.

Now, is Norgard saying just that there are SONIC interconnections, or is he implying a deeper, PHILOSOPHIC (now I'm confusing myself!,haha)

Is there another piece of music that you know of, that has similar intentions, that might clarify these 'enigmatic' aspects? (other Composers)


I certainly don't want to be ONLY enjoying this music on a...ugh , God forbid...grade school level ... when there are greater thoughts going on. Of course, I've only been through it once... and NOW... I'm actually quite intimidated by another hearing.

However... onward forward!



btw CRCulver... I've said before how much I appreciate your reviews (along with 'scarecrow' 'discophage' 'hutch/autonemous'(?)), so, I raise my cup 'o tea to ya!! Thanks!!

[snyprrr]

SYMPHONY NO.6


Now I have Syms. 3-6, all within a month! No.6 I found to be a quite lush affair indeed, as if ALL Messiaen were playing at the same time! Perhaps its profile wasn't as outre as No.5, but, if you had told me that No.6 was indeed No.3, I certainly would still have called it a Masterpiece.

Some of those descending string glissandos reminded me of Penderecki's Dream of Jacob. Anyhow, there is so much going on here, it will surely take a while to get into this one.

However, I REALLY liked the other piece on this Chandos cd. It starts off with subterranean brass and only gets better and better. A lot of Norgard sounds to me like the Xenakean processes filtered through a more imaginative, human demeanor, with the audacious sounds of Messiaen added in abundance, with also the spectral, and,... and,... and,...

whew!

[lescamil]

Have you gotten to Symphony No. 7 yet?

[snyprrr]

Have you gotten to Symphony No. 7 yet?

No. I might have to wait on YouTube for that. What do you think?

[snyprrr]

No. I might have to wait on YouTube for that. What do you think?

I'd rather wait for a Chandos than immediately get the DaCapo. But I digress...


Listened to String Quartet No.8 tonight after having been exposed to these Symphonies for a few weeks, and yes!, it makes a lot more sonic sense to my ears now. I hear all the wildness of portions of the bigger pieces here in this SQ. It's really nice how Norgard gets that spectral sound yet keeps things moving in unpredictable directions.


I'll admit that these Symphonies have an almost Narcotic Quality that makes me easily take them for granted, especially one so well integrated as No.6. I played No.5 for a 'normie' as she said it sounded like what's going on inside one's head! OK!, I can see that. Perhaps Norgard just dreams this stuff and has a MIDI cable plug-in a la The Matrix? Anyhow, I could be going gaga over Norgard here, and I just want to make sure I'm getting more than just the sonic spectacular.

Thanks also to Norgard for being a Great Communicator, in that his Music is pretty well as accessable(sic) as one might fancy for High Modernism. I mean, who comes close? Salonen obviously picked up on this stuff, no?

I'm just gushing... Norgard's 'The Man', no doubt!

[lescamil]

The seventh symphony is one that I haven't completely wrapped my head around. I like it, but I haven't yet been able to get as familiar with it as with some of the others. I really like the inclusion of the 12 tuned toms in the outer movements. It gives it almost a sort of exotic, primal sound. Maybe I'll report back later with some other thoughts on it, once I get around to it more.

[CRCulver]

BIS has released a disc featuring new recordings of Nørgård's two violin concertos as well as "Spaces of Time" for piano and orchestra. I'm particularly interested in the latter, as it was the first of the composer's works to feature a "sound emblem", a prominent instrumental voice in the ensemble that is not, however, concertante.

[DieNacht]

Interesting, thanks, I have an old tape of "Spaces of Time" and will give it a listen, plus definitely look out for the new BIS-issue ...