Beethoven Symphonies on Record

[Lilas Pastia]

I've seen and been intrigued by the Chailly set. Judging from the speed merchant-like timings, Chailly seems intent on breaking some world record.

Can't post a pic of the EMI set, as I write from my Ipad. It can probably be done, but I haven't learned how

Just google "beethoven 50 cd" and go to the Amazon link it will suggest. It's right there. It even has a nice review from an Amazon user. I don't see any dud in the whole lot, everything is in good stereo and the price is right. I bought it for 50$.

[kishnevi]

I've seen and been intrigued by the Chailly set. Judging from the speed merchant-like timings, Chailly seems intent on breaking some world record.

Can't post a pic of the EMI set, as I write from my Ipad. It can probably be done, but I haven't learned how

Just google "beethoven 50 cd" and go to the Amazon link it will suggest. It's right there. It even has a nice review from an Amazon user. I don't see any dud in the whole lot, everything is in good stereo and the price is right. I bought it for 50$.

Voici!
[asin]B000J0ZPH4[/asin]
Although the price is apparently much higher now--$114 for a new copy and $58 plus s/h for a used copy.  And I don't like to buy used CDs unless I can examine them first.  I've bought some on Amazon MP without a problem, but I've also had a couple in which their definition of "good" or "like new" was apparently much more flexible than mine.   So I'll wishlist it and hunt for alternate sources.  Although you are right,  it looks like there are no duds in there.

ETA--it seems less on the European Amazons, but not enough of a difference that I'll jump on it.  My listening pile is already too high and does not need another 50 CD boxset unless it's too cheap not to buy 

As for Chailly--I like him because he seems to find emotional depths many conductors don't seem to bring out in the symphonies.  Jens used the term "darker" in talking about Chailly's cycle,  but I'd prefer an adjective on the order of "intense".

[Lilas Pastia]

Could 'intense' and 'darker' apply to the orchestra's tonal characteristics? That's what I would expect from the Leipzig Gewandhaus. And that's why I'm interesed in it. If the conductor has the humility and intelligence to let the musicians play according to their particular culture and tonal world we have a winning combination. Something that, in my experience is not achieved all that often when it comes to Beethoven symphonies - the desire to make a 'statement', to leave an individual mark is just irresistible. After all, when is the next time you'll be in the studio to record the Nine again?

In this day and age it's hard not to view a new symphony cycle without a suspicion that something is uselessly underlined (as if we're too uncouth to get the point without that 'help') -  or simply not ready to be committed to posterity's judgment. Let's call that the Cycle Curse. And of course it applies to Bruckner, Mahler, Mozart etc. From what I've read Chailly might have committed a 'real' cycle.

[jwinter]

I've been working my way through Chailly's set over the past couple of weeks.  Not quite finished yet, but so far I have to say that I'm quite impressed.  I would agree that it is both "intense" and "dark": it's beautifully recorded, and he gets great clarity of texture from the orchestra, yet while everything is audible, he still manages to give the music the weight and power that it needs, despite the very swift tempo.  The speeds are fast but on the whole the performances seem very natural rather than forced; he's particularly good in those symphonies that require a flowing sense of rhythm.  I listened to his 7 & 8 just this morning; the 7 is excellent (though I wish he'd slow down and smell the roses just a bit in the opening of the first movement), and I'll agree with xochtl that the 8 is one of the best I've ever heard. 

Chailly's is the first set I've heard that consistently takes what we've learned through period performance, revised scores, original metronome markings & the like, and applies it convincingly and with deep emotion, with a modern orchestra.  It's all a matter of personal taste, and again I'm still not quite finished with my 1st listen.  That said, I think I can already say that among recent (last 15-20 years) cycles on modern instruments, the only set I own that I would rank alongside Chailly is Barenboim's with the Staatskapple Berlin (although that is very different in character; I haven't heard his new one). 

To provide some context, to my ears I greatly prefer Chailly to Zinman (whose Beethoven I've always disliked, although the piano concertos aren't as bad as the symphonies, and I quite like his Schumann for some reason).  If I wanted a modern set I would give Chailly a clear edge over Abbado (at least the 1st two sets; the DVDs from Rome I thoroughly enjoyed, though some of that is surely the visual element), Haitink's London set (good, but not at this level), Vanska (who leaves me cool, though I can't quite say why), Rattle (terrible, one of the very few I've sold), or Harnoncourt (fascinating but a little too mercurial for my every day use).  I would even give it a small edge over Wand's, although I tend to think of Wand more as of the previous generation.  There are lots of recent Beethoven sets that I haven't heard of course; I'd like to try Mackerras, and am morbidly curious to hear Pletnev and Thielemann.

At any rate, I'm still absorbing the Chailly, but I would say that it's definitely worth exploring.  It will probably end up somewhere in my top 10 cycles overall.  (Not that I sit around ranking Beethoven cycles all day, but heck, it beats workin'  )

[Lilas Pastia]

I've seem the Chailly issued as single discs. I hope there will be a space-saving box set.

[Brian]

I've seem the Chailly issued as single discs. I hope there will be a space-saving box set.

It was originally released as a box set. I know a single disc of the 9th followed.

[asin]B005CYLSW8[/asin]

jwinter - I agree with you about Vanska; I think something about the rigid, unfeeling perfection of it all makes it sound like it was performed and conducted by automatons rather than people. My 21st century favorites are Abbado/Rome (mostly identical to the red Abbado box, by the way), Barenboim/Berlin, and (Nos 1-3 and 7 only) Dausgaard. P. Jarvi has the most persuasive "HIP-informed" Pastorale that I've heard so far and excellent readings of 2, 3, 7, and 8 as well. The Scottish Mackerras is really good but maybe not essential; I was able to score a new copy for $20, but even at a higher price it's worth it for his accounts. The only real disappointments I had were with the 4th's slow movement and the somewhat less crisp acoustic for the 9th. I am still waiting to purchase Chailly, Thielemann, and P. Jarvi's 9th.

[Lilas Pastia]

Oh, thanks. Never saw it as a box set. The store I go to is strong on boxes usually, but I seem to have missed it. Definitely one to look for.

[xochitl]

vanska's set left me cold as well, except for the 3rd, 7th and 6th [which is probably my favorite of all recordings of the piece ive heard]

it's really good to go back to it and sort of listen to the symphonies 'cleaned up' of unnecessary stuff and think 'well, yup, that's the score all right' and it is athletic and incredibly well executed...but i dont sense the spirit

[bigshot]

My favorites are Bohm/VPO and Kletzki/CzechPO

Bohm for the elegant Vienese charm and Kletzki for the wonderful phrasing and spirited sound of the Czechs.

[Que]

My favorites are Bohm/VPO and Kletzki/CzechPO

Bohm for the elegant Vienese charm and Kletzki for the wonderful phrasing and spirited sound of the Czechs.

Kletzki is sooo good! (introduced at GMG by Dancing Divertimentian)

My other "traditional" favourite is Jochum's cycle with the Koninklijk Concertgebouworkest aka RCO:

[asin]B000JU7N88[/asin]

On the HIPpies the jury is still out - Brüggen's cycle has a lot going for it, so has Immerseel's...

Q

[xochitl]

i just sampled some kletzki on spotify [the whole cycle is up]

WOW

where has this been all my life?


btw i also just heard the eroica 1st movement with skrowaczewski and im hooked 

[jwinter]

 Quote from: xochitl on Today at 01:18:20 AM

vanska's set left me cold as well, except for the 3rd, 7th and 6th [which is probably my favorite of all recordings of the piece ive heard]....

   
Wow, that's strong praise for Vanska's Pastorale.  I'll have to pull that out and relisten to it...

I was listening to Chailly's Pastorale last night.  Overall very nice, surprisingly effective for being so fast (I tend to like a more relaxed approach here).  Not an absolute top choice, but the thunderstorm was really stunning, quite brutal at points...

[Brian]

I was listening to Chailly's Pastorale last night.  Overall very nice, surprisingly effective for being so fast (I tend to like a more relaxed approach here).

Yeah, my favorite Pastorale is Barenboim's so that is where my sympathies lie! I do agree with him that the 6th is maybe the highlight of the Vanska cycle.

[Fafner]

I've been working my way through Chailly's set over the past couple of weeks.  Not quite finished yet, but so far I have to say that I'm quite impressed.  I would agree that it is both "intense" and "dark": it's beautifully recorded, and he gets great clarity of texture from the orchestra, yet while everything is audible, he still manages to give the music the weight and power that it needs, despite the very swift tempo.  The speeds are fast but on the whole the performances seem very natural rather than forced; he's particularly good in those symphonies that require a flowing sense of rhythm.  I listened to his 7 & 8 just this morning; the 7 is excellent (though I wish he'd slow down and smell the roses just a bit in the opening of the first movement), and I'll agree with xochtl that the 8 is one of the best I've ever heard. 

Chailly's is the first set I've heard that consistently takes what we've learned through period performance, revised scores, original metronome markings & the like, and applies it convincingly and with deep emotion, with a modern orchestra.  It's all a matter of personal taste, and again I'm still not quite finished with my 1st listen.  That said, I think I can already say that among recent (last 15-20 years) cycles on modern instruments, the only set I own that I would rank alongside Chailly is Barenboim's with the Staatskapple Berlin (although that is very different in character; I haven't heard his new one).

After some of the comments the thought occurred to get this set (I tend to be a multiple-version owner, but not so much for Beethoven symphonies).  But after listening to the samples on Amazon, the words "swift," "fast" don't come to mind.  If you added some analog artifacts to the sound, you probably could convince me I was listening to Toscaninni or Karajan '63.  It would be foolish of me to make any substantial comment based on short excerpts, but the tempos strike me as quite typical of the Toscanini school of Beethoven (as opposed to the Furtwangler).

[Fafner]

that's because toscanini followed beethoven's metronome markings as close as possible, so did chailly. chailly says his aim was observing beethoven's markings but then admits slow movement of 9th is slower than beethoven's...

And that was just the point I was trying to make.  Observing Beethoven's metronome marks is nothing new, and was not an innovate introduced by HIP performers.

[Holden]

...the only set I own that I would rank alongside Chailly is Barenboim's with the Staatskapple Berlin (although that is very different in character;

I read somewhere that Barenboim used Furtwangler as his model so I suppose that you couldn't get two sets more diametrically opposed.

The cycle with the East/West Divan Orchestra is available on Spotify. His Staatskapelle Dresden can be heard on NML

[Lilas Pastia]

i just sampled some kletzki on spotify [the whole cycle is up]

WOW

where has this been all my life?


btw i also just heard the eroica 1st movement with skrowaczewski and im hooked 

Definitely one of the best cycles. Mid sixties IIRC, very popular in France and in various retail distribution chains. Back then it was low-end, unglamorous, entry-level Beethoven . Since then it's been recognized as one of the mor e serious contenders - if only clean copies could be obtained. Symphonies 1,2,4-6 and 8 could hardly be bettered.  The Czech Phil's tonal qualities are abundantly on evidence despite the slightly fuzzy sound.

BTW Kletzki was a polish Jew, not a Czech, and a not inconsiderable composer.

[Brian]

btw i also just heard the eroica 1st movement with skrowaczewski and im hooked 

Skrowaczewski's First is one of my all-time favorites - so energetic! - but I listened to his Seventh today and was seriously disappointed. Ensemble playing wasn't as sharp and the finale had a serious lack of French horns.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Kletzki is sooo good! (introduced at GMG by Dancing Divertimentian)

And quickly seconded by Que.

[Que]

Definitely one of the best cycles. Mid sixties IIRC, very popular in France and in various retail distribution chains. Back then it was low-end, unglamorous, entry-level Beethoven . Since then it's been recognized as one of the mor e serious contenders - if only clean copies could be obtained. Symphonies 1,2,4-6 and 8 could hardly be bettered.  The Czech Phil's tonal qualities are abundantly on evidence despite the slightly fuzzy sound.

BTW Kletzki was a polish Jew, not a Czech, and a not inconsiderable composer.

You did'n shortlist the 9th, while I think this is one of the rare cycles with a superb 9th as a jewel in the crown.

The Kletzki cycle has been reissued by Supraphon twice in the past few years, first as three double discs and lately as a complete set:

[asin]B004NWHVSA[/asin]

Q