Beethoven Symphonies on Record

[Franco]

I guess you are not a thread merge kind of guy.

[Renfield]

I guess you are not a thread merge kind of guy.

He walks the path of the index.

[Renfield]

Quoting the now first post of this thread for everyone's convenience:

I just thought of something: would it be possible to append the index right after the first post, or even in it? It might be useful to keep the present thread's topic outline as the first thing anyone reads, before posting (assuming they consult the first page).

Edit: I made the proposed change myself. How does it look?

[RJR]

Erich Kleiber, Beethoven 9th. Because I'm listening to it right now.

[RJR]

We know that Beethoven was studying Bach, Handel and other Baroque composers at the time that he composed his ninth symphony. Does anyone else hear marked echoes of the Baroque music style in the first and second movements?

[RJR]

A series of recordings that are excellent, spiritual successors to Toscanini but in stereo are done by Monteux.  Swift tempos, classicist eye to the structure, but always finds the emotional heart.  I don't know if you can find an easy to find cycle of his, but they are worth listening to.

Very well said. Just listened to his recording with the San Fran of Beethoven's 2nd Symphony last night. Joie de vivre!

[RJR]

Question.
When some of you talk about period instruments in Beethoven's day are you referring to instruments that were constructed during his lifetime, instruments that were available during his lifetime, or a combination of both? Are there any documents extant at the time that tell us the name, manufacturer and date of construction of the various instruments that were being used by the musicans who made up the diverse chamber ensembles, pickup bands, local, provincial and capital city orchestras throughout Europe?

[MishaK]

Question.
When some of you talk about period instruments in Beethoven's day are you referring to instruments that were constructed during his lifetime, instruments that were available during his lifetime, or a combination of both? Are there any documents extant at the time that tell us the name, manufacturer and date of construction of the various instruments that were being used by the musicans who made up the diverse chamber ensembles, pickup bands, local, provincial and capital city orchestras throughout Europe?

When people speak of period instruments they mean instruments that are constructed the same way as the ones available and in common use at the given time the performers are seeking to replicate. In the case of string instruments that may include instruments actually built in Beethoven's time, but they would have to be restored to the original state. Even if you buy an authentic 17th/18th century Stradivari today, it does not look the way it looked when it left Stradivari's workshop. After Paganini, almost everyone angled violin necks down a bit and put in longer fingerboards and much higher bridges in order to accomodate greater string tension and accordingly a bigger, more brilliant tone. Same was done to violas and cellos. Later still, metal strings replaced gut. If you really want to be literal, you'd have to restore the neck and bridge at the very least to its pre-romantic state. In the case of brass instruments, you can't use originals from the composer's period because brass doesn't age well. It goes soft and brittle. Historic brass instruments are good only for museum display. Playing them would a) sound horrible and b) break them. You need to manufacture new instruments according to authentic period specifications, which generally means narrower bore, and in the case of trumpets and horns no valves or pistons. Whether all this hoopla is worth the effort in every case is sometimes questionable, as good conductors and performers are perfectly capable of adjusting their technique such as to produce a "period sound" on modern instruments (see e.g. Antonini's Beethoven), while likewise incompetent conductors and performers can make a mess of orchestral balances that they meant to clarify notwithstanding the use of period instruments (see e.g. Norrington's first Symphonie fantastique). Of course without someone restoring original instruments, even those seeking to replicate the sound on modern instruments wouldn't know what to do anyway, so there is no question that the HIP movement has brought a significant gain in our understanding of the development or orchestral sonorities.

[jwinter]

Any thoughts on Leinsdorf?

[asin]B006ZJJ6XW[/asin]

The only Leinsdorf Beethoven I have heard is the 9th (not sure if the same performance is included in the box above) which is excellent, a very driving, energetic version, which is nicely complemented by the Schoenberg:

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[david johnson]

schmidt-issertedt and weingartner put forth some fine lvb!

[xochitl]

anyone like Salonen's Beethoven?
the eroica & fifth are among my favs...makes me wonder what boulez could do with these pieces

under 'audio'
http://www.celebratesalonen.com/#/media

[Drasko]

the eroica & fifth are among my favs...makes me wonder what boulez could do with these pieces

There are recordings of Boulez conducting Eroica and the 5th, and studio recordings no less.

The fifth is with The New Philharmonia, released by Columbia on LP, never made it to CD. Haven't heard it myself.

Eroica is with Baden-Baden orchestra recorded in early 60s. Studio recording never officially released, but used to be available here and there from the collectors. Unfortunately rather bland performance, bit on the slow side. You'd never guess the conductor from the recording.

[Lilas Pastia]

There are recordings of Boulez conducting Eroica and the 5th, and studio recordings no less.

The fifth is with The New Philharmonia, released by Columbia on LP, never made it to CD. Haven't heard it myself.

Eroica is with Baden-Baden orchestra recorded in early 60s. Studio recording never officially released, but used to be available here and there from the collectors. Unfortunately rather bland performance, bit on the slow side. You'd never guess the conductor from the recording.

That Baden-Baden Boulez Eroica is one of the most uninteresting I can think of. The Columbia 5th is also a dud, but whereas the Eroica is 'normal' (except that it's lifeless), the 5th is resolutely perverse. The 1st movement is the slowest I've ever heard. He makes Bernstein WP sound petulant by comparison. I just can't fathom what may have possessed him.

[Lilas Pastia]

A full cycle is a good thing in theory, but in practice something inevitably falls by the wayside. Therefore those I deem the best are rather mainstream sounding in terms of tempi and balances, boast a good mix of heft and energy and are superbly played and very well recorded. My favourites are the Böhm WP, Schmidt-Isserstedt WP, and Cluytens BP.

Various other cycles by Jochum, Karajan, Szell also do well but are not on that level IMO. Karajan and Szell in partular tend to induce fatigue through excessive, unrelenting energy. With Jochum I find everything superbly shaped, but ultimately lacking in profile. Finding the right balance between muscle and repose, wit and Gemütlichkeit is very hard. In my experience the 3 cycles I mention score best in that regard. And the most recent is already 40 years old .

Other worthies: Ansermet SRO is very characterful, and it keeps a nice balance between beauty of sound and strongly profiled orchestral playing. Kempe Munich is very nice too, but the recording is a bit too distant, which robs the performances of some of their punch. Best 7th ever IMHO. Davis SD is marvelous in places (a glorious 3rd) and has great playing and sound, but he doesn't seem equally involved in all the symphonies.

Blomstedt SD and Zinman were once favourites but I got tired of them. Blomstedt is sometimes too ponderous, whereas Zinman seems to equate alacrity with speed. It's beautifully played and recorded though.

I have the reissued Leinsdorf set but haven't listened to it yet.

[xochitl]

about full cycles, yeah

i havent yet found one that's perfect, but then, my views and demands on the individual symphonies tend to evolve [almostweekly] the more i hear them

[Lilas Pastia]

Currently going through  the Cluytens cycle, which happens to be the one EMI chose to include in its 50-disc set (what's the occasion, though? It's not a sesquicentenary or a bicentenary year...unless you expect a special tribute on the 185th anniversary of the composer's death ).

In any case, this box has been very rewarding so far. The Cluytens set, recorded 1958-1961 has been spottily available since it was issued. It was quickly relegated to the back benches when EMI started issuing Klemperer's recordings. I made its acquaintance in the early seventies whent it was already relegated to cheap reissue on the Seraphim label. Exit Cluytens, one of EMI's star conductors of the fifties and sixties . Since then only the Pastoral and the Ninth have been available here and there. Wise decision from EMI. They could chose between Karajan and the Philharmonia (uncompetitive to many since his landmark 1962 set with his orchestra), or the Klemperer renderings, which have never been absent from the catalogue and didn't hold much interest from german, french or american record collectors.

The whole cycle is beautifully and characterfully played (those winds!!), sturdily conducted with just the right mix of energy and heft that makes Beethoven's sound world 'complete', not wanting in any department. Particularly successful are symphonies 1, 3, 6, 7 and 9. They are so satisfying that I'm not tempted to engage in comparisons. At first  I though that this 7th would be a comfortable, unremarkable reading, but Cluytens develops nicely from a 'symphonic' approach to 1 to an intensely lyrical, exquisitely balanced slow movement, one of the most remarkable I've heard in that work. Good scherzo, excellent Finale.

For 2 and 5 I prefer a more dynamic approach - not necessarily faster, just more accented. # 4 is very good - nothing to carp at - but this has been especially successful on disc with brilliant versions by Böhm WP, Karajan BP (his most successful Beethoven interpretation IMO, whether from 1962 or 1977), Jochum BP and C. Kleiber. The only  disappointment is in # 8, where fine readings of 2-4 cannot compensate for a sluggish, lumpy first movement. The Eight is a difficult work to bring off. I still haven't heard an interpretation that truly satisfies me. The way I see it, this is a schizophrenic work, alternating  between hyperactive bustle,  zaniness, top-heavy orchestration on the one hand and good humour, cheerfulness and transparent textures on the other. IOW I want to like it but it unnerves me no end.

[TheGSMoeller]

Any thoughts on Leinsdorf?

[asin]B006ZJJ6XW[/asin]

The only Leinsdorf Beethoven I have heard is the 9th (not sure if the same performance is included in the box above) which is excellent, a very driving, energetic version, which is nicely complemented by the Schoenberg:

[asin]B00004TCPT[/asin]

My favorite no.9, only one to ever bring me to the edge of my seat. And yes, a real great combo with the Schoenberg which is equally emotional.

[Lilas Pastia]

i'd recommend three different 8ths to you if you already haven't tried...most probably muti

Thanks' I'll try to locate the Muti outside of the complete set. I think I have downloaded the Walter. It's probably there in the ever growing queue... Harnoncourt? Hmmm... Not sure. I wish he would redo his Beethoven with the Concentus Musicus. He's now past 80, a time where most conductors take a bit more time to smell the flowers...

[xochitl]

i found chailly's 8th pretty amazing

probably the best thing from his cycle imo

[kishnevi]

Thanks' I'll try to locate the Muti outside of the complete set. I think I have downloaded the Walter. It's probably there in the ever growing queue... Harnoncourt? Hmmm... Not sure. I wish he would redo his Beethoven with the Concentus Musicus. He's now past 80, a time where most conductors take a bit more time to smell the flowers...

At this point, it may be easier and almost as cheap to get the full Muti.  To be honest, I don't remember anything standing out from that cycle.   And I was impressed by the non symphonic works in Harnoncourt's cycle more than the symphonies (especially the concertos with Aimard)--I have the full box with the Missa Solemnis, Creatures of Prometheus, etc.

I do think the Chailly cycle would be well worth getting--at least, it's my current favorite.

Re the Cluytens and the 50CD EMI box you mentioned earlier--what set is that?  I don't remember seeing any such thing (was it an EMIFrance release?).