Author Topic: Schoeck Treatment  (Read 19842 times)

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snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 07:59:11 PM »
Are these not the most gorgeous songs for baritone and orchestra ever?

ok,... sure, when you put it like that! ;D

I certainly admit that Mr. S. has quite an impressive sound, and that the orchestration is the epitome of subtle tones. I think from growing up Classical Backwards, meaning, I heard (and loved) Pop Music first, so, I think I demand clear, strong melodies, and, you have to admit, the (and I'll say it) beautiful melodic flow of these pieces is very elusive.

Who is a Pop Music baritone? Barry White? I'm being serious!! I always wished there was a style for someone like Jeff Buckley for this kind of thing (yes, I'm being selfish, haha). But, who is a Popular baritone? (are they not all tenors and higher?)

Someone direct me to the correct thread, haha!

ps- I do like Shosty's No.13!

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 05:28:45 AM »
In pop music - men tend to sing in the highest part of their voice, and use falsetto alot. Female pop singers tend to use the lowest part of their voice - tend to stick below the centre of the treble clef. There are exceptions of course, but that is what they are.
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snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2010, 10:03:42 AM »
A) My mother likes Elegie!

B) I've just finished a virgin listen of Schoeck's mature C Major SQ of 1923. Apparently, he was first introduced to the Modern Composers that year at the ICSM (?), and the SQ shows a lot of the traits of early '20s composers such as Bartok, Szymanowski, and Bartok.

First off, with a Grave opening, I had expected a dark and gloomy, angst ridden, typically Germanic expressionism, a la Pfitzner's echt SQ No.2 (also mid '20s). But, pow!, Schoeck starts off in Happy Springland, and the SQ as a whole has that joyous, mountainous feel to it. In the livelier moments, it feels like Zemlinsky without the bitter sarcasm.

It is in five mvmts, with, as the notes put it, an "annoying" ticking (pizz) theme in the central Scherzo: Allegro. In a way, it outdoes Bartok's No.4's pizz mvmt (though, not in a Modern sense).

The Lento has a deep, elusive lyricism, and, as a whole, one can sense Schoeck's songlike archs. I'll admit I wasn't totally knocked off my chair by this music, but, that's probably because there is more waiting on further listening. Perhaps this is the Swissness of the music? All in all, this is one of the most joyous SQs this side of Janacek, but without all lot of the obviousness.

The group, the Amar Quartet (!), was allowed to use their name by some Hindemith Society, and, on this musiques-suisses.ch cd, along with Fritz Brun's SQ No.3, they aquite themselves with a thick, juicy tone in a perfectly, slightly drier acoustic that highlights the sheer, sumptuous plumpness of their ensemble. They all are using famous named Strads, and you can hear it!

If you're in the market for this material, I suggest this cd for the presentational contrast between these particular two SQs (as opposed to Schoeck's Complete Music for SQ on MDG (though, fine as I'm sure it is)). I think Brun is worth it, and, they, apparently, were "like brothers."

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 11:12:06 PM »
Yeah - but 26 Swiss Francs for this disc + PP? Switzerland sure is expensive, but this borders on the insane.

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2010, 02:52:25 AM »
I'm not keen on the string quartets - they're a bit bland and lack basic inspiration even if Schoeck is a consumate craftsman.

They're available here for free:
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp113/index.htm

More Schoeck:
http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp112/index.htm

http://www.avantgardeproject.org/agp114/index.htm
Geologist.

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Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2010, 07:31:03 AM »
REALLY want to hear Massimilla Doni - does anyone here have it? Apparently it's like an even more rarefied and subtle Capriccio. (!) Why oh why, is it out of print?! Amazon sellers charge obscene amounts for it...


Oh to be a millionaire.
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Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2010, 11:17:14 AM »
I must say that Elegie takes some getting used to/getting into - then it yields rewards, but it can seem all very rich and deliquescent and uneventful. The Notturno is a bit more dramatic, even Lebendig begraben has more in-your-face quality. Penthesilea is of course something else, tension screwed up to the max, eruptive, agonized. I have two recordings of that - the more recent recording with Yvonne Naef is a fantastic performance, but the conductor has made cuts and changes in a rather highhanded way, changing the instrumental balance etc. The other I have on LP w/Helga Dernesch is very fine too. In a way this is more radically expressionist than Elektra, and the play it is based on (cut and modified by Schoeck) one of the great masterpieces of European theatre that one really should read anyway. I also have Massimilla Doni, the libretto of which is not a masterpiece, but the opera does have very great qualities and an autumnal glow that reminds one a bit of Capriccio mixed with a whiff of decadence from the stews of Schreker city (it takes place in Venice, 1930). Though I am not a huge Fischer-Dieskau fan, the CD devoted to Schoeck lieder in the DG FiDi Edition has a very good selection of mainly early recordings by the great Panjandrum. I am waiting for a good opportunity to get Das holde Bescheiden - I wish there were another recording than the one with the very late FiDi. There is an intriguing Orfeo CD with a lieder compilation sung by Elizabeth Grümmer containing some songs from that collection - maybe I will go there first.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2010, 11:56:12 AM »
I must say that Elegie takes some getting used to/getting into - then it yields rewards, but it can seem all very rich and deliquescent and uneventful. The Notturno is a bit more dramatic, even Lebendig begraben has more in-your-face quality. Penthesilea is of course something else, tension screwed up to the max, eruptive, agonized. I have two recordings of that - the more recent recording with Yvonne Naef is a fantastic performance, but the conductor has made cuts and changes in a rather highhanded way, changing the instrumental balance etc. The other I have on LP w/Helga Dernesch is very fine too. In a way this is more radically expressionist than Elektra, and the play it is based on (cut and modified by Schoeck) one of the great masterpieces of European theatre that one really should read anyway. I also have Massimilla Doni, the libretto of which is not a masterpiece, but the opera does have very great qualities and an autumnal glow that reminds one a bit of Capriccio mixed with a whiff of decadence from the stews of Schreker city (it takes place in Venice, 1930). Though I am not a huge Fischer-Dieskau fan, the CD devoted to Schoeck lieder in the DG FiDi Edition has a very good selection of mainly early recordings by the great Panjandrum. I am waiting for a good opportunity to get Das holde Bescheiden - I wish there were another recording than the one with the very late FiDi. There is an intriguing Orfeo CD with a lieder compilation sung by Elizabeth Grümmer containing some songs from that collection - maybe I will go there first.

Presumably you have Venus too - it's another very fine work, very beautiful, and with the most extraordinary orchestration and subtleties of harmony as always with Schoeck. And unlike Strauss in his "mythological/greek" operas (Elektra, Helena, Daphne, Danae) it's almost believable in terms of setting - there is something ancient and mysterious and appolonian about this score. The Penthesilea with Naef is hideously expensive now - I've only had the 1957 broadcast with Martha Modl up until now which is obviously a bit limited by the sound, but is still amazing. Just ordered Dernesch.

I adored Elegie the first time I heard it. As Luke has said before - those infinite shadings and subtleties of tone, all within one overarching mood - it's an extraordinary and almost unprecedented achievement (Silvestrov's Silent Songs share the lack of contrast, hushed tone, and sustained intensity of utterance though are quite different in effect). But Elegie is desert island stuff for me - as moving and wonderful as Strauss' Vier Letzte in its own way I think, though far softer and more understated of course - it sighs and soughs, glints and glimmers, where Strauss is all warmth and soaring radiance. For me Lebendig Begraben took longer to appreciate, but now I love it too of course. Notturno is great, but I like it less than these too, and I have Unter Sternen, Das Holde Bescheiden and the first opera Erwin and Elmire but have not yet had a chance to listen to them. The string quartets are a bit disappointing, as is the cello concerto, but the fairly early violin concerto is vernal and refulgent and everything you want a violin concerto from the teens of the last century to be. I also just found a few other miscellaneous songs on my PC that I have not yet heard.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 12:14:15 PM by Guido »
Geologist.

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snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2010, 07:17:16 PM »

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2010, 10:33:08 AM »
What do people think of Nachhall, the last of the song cycles with orchestra? (I'm not sure if its the absolutely last song cycle). It seems to be lacking in distinctive character, unlike the other voice/orchestra song cycles, and in general the quality does not seem to be as high as the others. Am I missing something?
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Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2010, 05:29:50 AM »
Got the Dernesch Penthelesia - its so much more wonderful than I had realised from the 1957 recording - so many subtleties and beauties in the orchestration, harmony, timbres. All the singers are quite taxed by it (all parts sound excrutiatingly difficult), lots of quite damaged voices on show here too, but all are very committed, and the performance comes off very very well. My love of this composer continues to increase.
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Offline MDL

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2010, 05:56:39 AM »
Got the Dernesch Penthelesia - its so much more wonderful than I had realised from the 1957 recording - so many subtleties and beauties in the orchestration, harmony, timbres. All the singers are quite taxed by it (all parts sound excrutiatingly difficult), lots of quite damaged voices on show here too, but all are very committed, and the performance comes off very very well. My love of this composer continues to increase.

That's the only Schoeck CD in my collection, but it's a corker. The orchestration is extremely unusual and the whole thing packs quite a wallop. The other half is away this weekend, so I might dig this one out and annoy the neighbours.    :D I wish I had the libretto, though.


Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2010, 06:22:19 AM »
The Pan Classics issue with Naef has a libretto - much too long for me to copy, unfortunately, it would take hours and lots of ink/paper on the photocopier and our scanner is bust. There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2010, 07:12:23 AM »
I had the german libretto included in the Darnesch recording that you have too.

Quote
There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.

I'll definitely bear this in mind - definitely want to delve deeper into this work.
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Offline MDL

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2010, 12:51:35 PM »
The Pan Classics issue with Naef has a libretto - much too long for me to copy, unfortunately, it would take hours and lots of ink/paper on the photocopier and our scanner is bust. There is a Maurice Sendak illustrated translation of Kleist's original - the libretto is basically a shorter version of that (Harper Collins). You owe it to yourselves to read the play, one of the great masterpieces in all dramatic literature.

It's been a while since I played my Orfeo copy of Penthesilea (and I was replying to this thread while I was away from my CD collection), so I stupidly and unforgivably forgot that the German libretto is actually included. There's no translation, but, hey, we've always got Google Translate to help us out with those bits we're completely stuck on.

It's almost 11pm, so perhaps I won't be terrifying my neighbours with this opera tonight, but I intend to reacquaint myself with it big time over the weekend.

Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2010, 01:05:50 AM »
Excuse the hysterical laughter echoing down the vectors of the www, but the idea of any translating machine making sense of Kleist's knotty syntax is too risible -  can you imagine the same done into modern English with the obscurest late Shakespeare you can find, or some of Ben Jonson's more classically inspired stuff? Who is going to make the software for this kind of job? It's a bit like trying to use your Write Your Own Pop Song CD-Rom to make a nice hummable version of the Große Fuge.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Offline MDL

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2010, 01:37:31 AM »
Excuse the hysterical laughter echoing down the vectors of the www, but the idea of any translating machine making sense of Kleist's knotty syntax is too risible -  can you imagine the same done into modern English with the obscurest late Shakespeare you can find, or some of Ben Jonson's more classically inspired stuff? Who is going to make the software for this kind of job? It's a bit like trying to use your Write Your Own Pop Song CD-Rom to make a nice hummable version of the Große Fuge.

Ha! Obviously, I would never use Google Translate in the hope of coming up with an elegant, sophisticated reworking of the text, but my German is so crap, it can at least give me a hint of what's going on. At the moment, as far as I can tell, it might be an opera about a bunch of ladies buying shoes. (That's probably what Google will tell me they're saying, anyway.)

Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2010, 04:51:15 AM »
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.1/dowden.html - quite a good summary.
Reading a real translation seems like a better alternative - what but a pile of syntactically disjointed words will Google produce? Below a bit I chose at random from the play with P speaking
O laß mich, Prothoe! O laß dies Herz
Zwei Augenblick in diesem Strom der Lust,
Wie ein besudelt Kind, sich untertauchen;
Mit jedem Schlag in seine üpp'gen Wellen
Wäscht sich ein Makel mir vom Busen weg.
Die Eumeniden fliehn, die schrecklichen,
Es weht, wie Nahn der Götter um mich her,
Ich möchte gleich in ihren Chor mich mischen,
Zum Tode war ich nie so reif als jetzt.
O let me, Prothoe! Oh, let this heart           O Prothoe, O let me be! O let
Two moment in this stream of pleasure,     This heart immerse itself  for two brief moments
Like a soiled child immerse himself;             In this stream of joy, like a dirty child;
With every stroke in his üpp'gen waves      With every thrust I make in its rampant waves
Washes a blemish on my breasts away.     My bosom is cleansed of an inner blemish.
The Eumenides flee the terrible,                  The Eumenides, the terrible ones, are fleeing,
It blows like the gods to come near me,      An airy motion like the approach of gods
I should like to mix in their choir me             Surrounds me and I would straight join their ranks,
To death, I was never so ripe than now.     Never have I been so ripe for death as now.
                                  OK, so you can figure something out from the Google "translation", which even has a crazy kind of poetry of its own. My tentative first attempt would need cleaning up. Maybe I'll do it this winter and put it on line.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 05:17:07 AM by mjwal »
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Offline MDL

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2010, 05:23:26 AM »
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.1/dowden.html - quite a good summary.
Reading a real translation seems like a better alternative - what but a pile of syntactically disjointed words will Google produce? Below a bit I chose at random from the play with P speaking
O laß mich, Prothoe! O laß dies Herz
Zwei Augenblick in diesem Strom der Lust,
Wie ein besudelt Kind, sich untertauchen;
Mit jedem Schlag in seine üpp'gen Wellen
Wäscht sich ein Makel mir vom Busen weg.
Die Eumeniden fliehn, die schrecklichen,
Es weht, wie Nahn der Götter um mich her,
Ich möchte gleich in ihren Chor mich mischen,
Zum Tode war ich nie so reif als jetzt.
O let me, Prothoe! Oh, let this heart           O Prothoe, no more of this! O let
Two moment in this stream of pleasure,     This heart immerse itself  for two brief moments
Like a soiled child immerse himself;             In this stream of joy, like a dirty child;
With every stroke in his üpp'gen waves      With every thrust I make in its rampant waves
Washes a blemish on my breasts away.     My bosom is cleansed of an inner blemish.
The Eumenides flee the terrible,                  The Eumenides, the terrible ones, are fleeing,
It blows like the gods to come near me,      An airy motion like the approach of gods
I should like to mix in their choir me             Surrounds me and I would straight join their ranks,
To death, I was never so ripe than now.     Never have I been so ripe for death as now.
                                  OK, so you can figure something out from the Google "translation", which even has a crazy kind of poetry of its own. My tentative first attempt would need cleaning up. Maybe I'll do it this winter and put it on line.

That would be very welcome. I occasionally stick famous English speeches into Google, translate them into, say, Chinese, and translate them back to see what comes out: "To be, or not to be" for example:


In order to survive, or do not is: this is a problem:
No matter what, however noble hearts subjected to
Slings and arrows of outrageous fate
Or to take arms against the sea of trouble,
Opposition and end? Die: to sleep;
Asleep; and by a sleep to say we end
Heart - thousands of acetylcholinesterase and natural shocks
Flesh is exposed, people of a successful
Religion is wish'd. To die, to sleep;
Sleep: perchance to dream: Well, there is a fatal;

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2010, 05:52:20 AM »
There isn't a libretto database around like IMSLP is there? would be good to have one with public domain translations.
Geologist.

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