Author Topic: Schoeck Treatment  (Read 16812 times)

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Offline MDL

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2010, 11:48:28 AM »
There isn't a libretto database around like IMSLP is there? would be good to have one with public domain translations.

That's a good question. I'm always on the look-out for good libretto/translation sites. Any ideas, people?

Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 11:50:15 AM »
I suppose you all know this:
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/librettim.html
No recent (post-Puccini) operas, of course.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

jlaurson

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« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 02:59:51 PM by jlaurson »

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2011, 02:37:06 PM »
Very interesting piece, and glad that there are other ardent admirers of this composer. I don't agree with the constant denigration of Elegie in the piece though (I personally prefer it to Notturno, and I am incredibly greatful to Luke for introducing me to it). Hadn't picked up on the Joyce connection before, but now it makes sense why Barber set that one poem from Lebendig Begraben.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

jlaurson

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2011, 02:58:44 PM »
Very interesting piece, and glad that there are other ardent admirers of this composer. I don't agree with the constant denigration of Elegie in the piece though (I personally prefer it to Notturno, and I am incredibly greatful to Luke for introducing me to it). Hadn't picked up on the Joyce connection before, but now it makes sense why Barber set that one poem from Lebendig Begraben.

"Constant denigration" is a little exaggerated, I think...

Between myself ("Perhaps you know Schoeck’s Elegie, which might make the Swiss composer seem more like a pocket-sized Richard Strauss; Four-Last-Songs-au-miniature, with a shorter attention span and a sense of very amiable sameness. I like Elegie very much, but Notturno is a different caliber composition in every sense. Notturno pushes boundaries, while Elegie confirms them (from the safe side)." and Gerhaher ("it doesn’t quite manage to come across, I think. Well, I don’t cherish Elegie as much as Notturno at any rate.")

...I don't think either of us are denigrating it. I, for one, like it very, very much. In fact, it was my entry-piece into Schoeck. Perhaps "pocket-sized Richard Strauss" doesn't sound that great... but I happen to LOVE the Four Last Songs... so a version 'au miniature' is actually high praise in my book. If I could have found the damn disc, I would have included a sound sample from it, too... but it took me 7 hours just to remember where I had placed the ECM disc of Notturno. Argh.

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2011, 01:02:02 AM »
Haha, didn't realise it was by you! Should have guessed perhaps. I guess I just objected to the sense of Schoeck's smallness! "Shorter attention span" for instance - it's almost three times the length, and far less varied that the Vier Letzte, which to me means that it has a far greater overall attention span! Where you say "amiable sameness", I would be inclined to go for "unparalleled subtlety"!

I adore both Notturno and Elegie, but for me Elegie is the more amazing composition because of what it achieves - 24 songs, over the period of an hour, with infinitely variegated shades of the same basic emotional colour, never once boring, the orchestration and vocal line endlessly rapt, shimmering and sighing, the music of consistently inspired quality. Notturno strikes me as the more conventional piece in a strange way, unusual though it is.

Apart from the fact that they're both late romantics and rather "out of their time", I don't see the Strauss connection as strongly as you do; that is I don't think Schoeck is doing what Strauss is doing but just on a smaller scale. The four last songs are radiance in excelsis, the soaring eroticism of earlier soprano cantilenas here taking on a truly spiritual warmth, graceful, nostalgic, autumnal. At his heart though, Strauss is all sleaze and sentimentality, and only in his Indian Summer phase does he transcend this. Schoeck's Elegie certainly is nostalgic and autumnal, but it never soars in the same way - the searing eroticism of Strauss is here replaced with obsessively repeating, sadly sighing and completely inward utterance of an equally exquisite oder. Strauss' enormous phantasmagorical orchestra replaced by a softly breathing chamber ensemble, just as brilliant in its quiet way as Strauss virtuoso orchestration.

Incidentally which version of Elegie do you have? I much prefer the Andreas Schmidt CPO disc (in all ways).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 07:44:19 AM by Guido »
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Offline Octave

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2013, 10:56:18 PM »
I've heard the ECM recording of Schoeck's NOTTURNO, but how does the recording by the Carmina Quartet with Olaf Bär (Dal Segno) compare?  It seems that maybe the Carmina/Bär is several minutes shorter than the Rosamund/Gerhaher.



I am interested in the Dal Segno recording because it pairs the NOTTURNO with Szymanowski's two quartets and a little Webern (in fact, the Schoeck gets second billing), only because it's a generously filled disc and I don't know the Szym quartets.  There was some praise for the Carmina recordings of the Szymanowski over in that composer's thread (though not everyone was enthusiastic about the music itself), though it looks like the recordings were from a Denon disc w/o the Schoeck.  Is the Dal Segno a reissue of the Denon with Schoeck added?

Here is a brief comparison from Rob Barnett's Musicweb review of the ECM disc:
Quote
The only one I have encountered is the Dal Segno Bär. Bär lacks Gerhaher’s aureate qualities though he has more abrasion, protest and anger in his voice. The Dal Segno does not include texts and translations but where the ECM offers just Notturno Dal Segno include good versions of the two Szymanowskis and the Webern Langsamer Satz. However on this showing if Notturno and musicality is your priority then Gerhaher and ECM have the edge.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:13:20 AM by Octave »
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Offline mjwal

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2013, 03:11:05 AM »
What about Fischer-Dieskau's Notturno with the Juilliard Qt? Anybody know it? I have it on LP - it doesn't seem to have been silvered.* Otherwise I only know the Tüller recording (not bad), as it is on YouTube. I confess I haven't listened to the FiDi LP for a long time - I'll have a go, one day soon. I agree with Guido that it's nothing at all like Strauss. At times the string quartet "accompaniment" makes me think of the Schoenberg of Verklärte Nacht crossed with a bit of French late-romantic. The vocal part is sometimes almost reminiscent of a non-existent singable version of Pierrot Lunaire, to my ears, with a sprinkling of Parsifal. I realise this is very subjective.
* I think I haven't mentioned the Schoeck disc in DG's FiDi Edition, which contains 33 Lieder based on poems by various German poets (a lot of Goethe and Hesse). Probably unavailable.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 04:07:18 AM by mjwal »
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2013, 06:50:18 AM »
I've heard the ECM recording of Schoeck's NOTTURNO, but how does the recording by the Carmina Quartet with Olaf Bär (Dal Segno) compare?  It seems that maybe the Carmina/Bär is several minutes shorter than the Rosamund/Gerhaher.



I am interested in the Dal Segno recording because it pairs the NOTTURNO with Szymanowski's two quartets and a little Webern (in fact, the Schoeck gets second billing), only because it's a generously filled disc and I don't know the Szym quartets.  There was some praise for the Carmina recordings of the Szymanowski over in that composer's thread (though not everyone was enthusiastic about the music itself), though it looks like the recordings were from a Denon disc w/o the Schoeck.  Is the Dal Segno a reissue of the Denon with Schoeck added?

Here is a brief comparison from Rob Barnett's Musicweb review of the ECM disc:

Don't the Camina/ Szymanowski recordings come from an old Denon(?) cd? Very good as I recall.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2013, 08:18:45 AM »
Don't the Camina/ Szymanowski recordings come from an old Denon(?) cd? Very good as I recall.
Yes they do. Got a great review in the Gramophone oce upon a time. I have them.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2013, 05:39:57 PM »
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.
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Offline Octave

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2013, 09:45:36 PM »
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.

Ah!  I was just going to ask/look (probably in that order: I yam what I yam) about a great recording of the Martin cello cto.  You answered two questions before they were asked.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2013, 09:53:07 PM »
Ah!  I was just going to ask/look (probably in that order: I yam what I yam) about a great recording of the Martin cello cto.  You answered two questions before they were asked.

Ah ha! :) An excellent recording, Octave. One for the collection for sure. All stellar performances. Poltera is a fantastic cellist and I may end up buying the rest of his recordings on BIS. He's a got a new Barber out that looks quite interesting.
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Offline calyptorhynchus

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2013, 08:41:31 PM »
I have what I think is an alternative Bis release of a the Poltera Cello Concerto. It's coupled with Poltera's recording of the Cello Sonata and some songs arranged for cello and piano.

Abslutely gorgeous, these are late works (Concerto and Sonata anyway) and the mood is so autumnal you have to brush leaves off yourself every time you listen.

Must explore the songs.

snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2013, 04:59:23 AM »
Love Schoeck's Cello Concerto. Check out the Poltera recording on BIS if you haven't already:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1737

This recording also contains excellent performances of the Martin Cello Concerto and the Honegger Cello Concerto.

Wait... they culled the other cds and made one super awesome cd???? Awesome!

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2013, 05:20:41 AM »
Yes, there's 1 CD of each of those 3 composers' cello works (well worth having, I have them all) and a concatenated CD just containing the concertoes.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2013, 05:33:29 AM »
Wonderful composer!  The work that appeals to me the most is Elegie - the orchestration for the chamber ensemble is finely well-wrought.  This recording is the one I've heard (don't know if it has been mentioned yet) and I found it to be goosebump producing.



 :)

jlaurson

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2013, 05:43:32 AM »
Wonderful composer!  The work that appeals to me the most is Elegie - the orchestration for the chamber ensemble is finely well-wrought.  This recording is the one I've heard (don't know if it has been mentioned yet) and I found it to be goosebump producing.


Mertens is terrific, both in Elegie (the SACD you picture is a re-issue of an earlier release) and Nocturno. Yumm. But the other song cycles - the ones Dieskau recorded - are amazing, too, and should be re-introduced into the ... well, if not the repertoire, than at least into semi-obscurity from current near-obscurity.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2013, 06:29:40 AM »
Mertens is terrific, both in Elegie (the SACD you picture is a re-issue of an earlier release) and Nocturno. Yumm. But the other song cycles - the ones Dieskau recorded - are amazing, too, and should be re-introduced into the ... well, if not the repertoire, than at least into semi-obscurity from current near-obscurity.
I have the Claves discs, and I find them in some ways more interesting than Elegie and Notturno.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2013, 10:27:43 AM »
Wait... they culled the other cds and made one super awesome cd???? Awesome!

Yes, totally awesome. 8)
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