Author Topic: Schoeck Treatment  (Read 19846 times)

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snyprrr

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Schoeck Treatment
« on: February 18, 2010, 09:48:57 PM »
ok, I'm not really the one to start this. I'm interested in his mature SQ, and, perhaps by extension, the song cycle Notturno, which, everyone seems to think is da bomb of half lit Post Romantic Angsty Moodiness. I don't know? Would I like it? ???

Is there syph? ;D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 09:52:15 PM by snyprrr »

Offline springrite

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 03:27:34 AM »
I love Schoeck's music. No time now. Suffice to say I love all the CDs I have of his music, from the songs (Nocturno, Der Sanger, and 4 or 5 more), the concerti and the quartets.
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 03:57:50 AM »
And the operas. And the song cycle Lebendig Begraben. Firstrate stuff!

snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 10:51:16 AM »
No time now.

If you get a minute, I would love your take on the SQs. Is the mature one a wild one?

Offline Luke

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 03:23:58 AM »
I love Schoeck's music. No time now. Suffice to say I love all the CDs I have of his music, from the songs (Nocturno, Der Sanger, and 4 or 5 more), the concerti and the quartets.

Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 03:25:39 AM by Luke »

Offline springrite

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 04:11:30 AM »
ok, I'm not really the one to start this. I'm interested in his mature SQ, and, perhaps by extension, the song cycle Notturno, which, everyone seems to think is da bomb of half lit Post Romantic Angsty Moodiness. I don't know? Would I like it? ???

Is there syph? ;D
Got a little time now, so I will expand a bit, though Luke really said it all beautifully.

What I want to add has to do with his chamber music and orchestral music, since obviously the place to start would be his songs (Notturno and Elegie first and foremost). When Scheock's violin concerto was universally praised after its premiere, Schoeck said "Well, but it has no words...", which tells you that in his mind, he only expresses himself fully and is at his best when it is vocal music. That comment from the composer himself may have contributed to the almost full neglect of his non-vocal music. But there are some absolute gems. First among these is his second quartet (he composed just two, plus a quartet movement which is like a student work). The first quartet is very well done, but simpler and more conventional. The 5 movement second quartet (from 1923 or 1925?) is complex, working with shorter motifs and voices gets distributed without any intrument really taking the obvious lead as in the first quartet. The five movements all have very different characters, which is another thing that's impressive to me.

Another wonderful chamber work that I only heard once on the radio but have not found in CD shops is the cello sonata. In terms of orchestral works, there is a NOVALIS CD that contain the violin concerto and the delightful Suite, Op 1, is very good as well. Somernacht is another orchestral work that I like.

I only have one of his operas, and have listened only once. So I will not make comment on it, except that after one listening to one opera, it seems clear to me that Scheock is at his best in the intimacies of songs rather than opera, although the opera is good.

So in conclusion, do start with the songs, but do not neglect the non-vocal gems! You will be glad that you discovered this great composer.
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 08:45:41 AM »
I'm quite aroused :-[ after reading both your posts! ;D

How can't you be intrigued by someone who's calling cards are named Notturno and Elegie? And, I'm torn over which SQ to get, the MDG, or the Swiss label (w/ Schoeck No.2 & Brun No.4)?

The problem now is that I've totally generated absolute expectations of this music. I'm going to have to distance myself first, haha. Kind of like meeting a new girl, no? :-*

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 12:15:03 PM »
Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.

What he said. Elegie is staggering. Notturno is also very beautiful. Do you know Lebendig Begraben Luke?
Geologist.

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snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 09:54:39 PM »
What he said. Elegie is staggering. Notturno is also very beautiful. Do you know Lebendig Begraben Luke?

Have you heard the cello music? There's a few albums.

Offline Luke

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 04:51:32 AM »
Your Finnissy thread got me sitting at the piano playing through my Finnissy collection, and now this one has me in a trance playing through the Elegie (in the piano reduction which used to be on IMSLP but is presently blocked). Lord but I love that piece. How he sustains the tone, with infinitely subtle variation, for so long, is just a miracle. It may be too much for some, I suppose - even I gave up after song 12 just now, had to take a break! But there's nothing else quite like it, and it's extraordinary.

Scarpia

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 08:57:44 PM »
Ditto. Schoeck is a real love of mine - his style is so allusive and subtle, but so powerful and so much his own. I've never heard anything else remotely like it, barring perhaps, and fortuitously, a couple of moments in Liebeszauber by Rudi Stephan. Bracketing Schoeck's songs as plain old late-romantic lied along with those of Marx and Korngold et al, as is sometimes done, is really wrong, as he has so much more distinct and intruiging a musical personality than any of these - the last of the great lieder writers, really.

For me the breakthrough was the month in 1998 or 1999 when Gramophone made the CPO recording of Schoeck's faultless song-cycle-with-chamber-orchestra Elegie their disc of the month and chose to feature the song Herbstgefuhl 2 on their cover disc. It absolutely enraptured me, this simple and breathtaking song in which the autumn forest is compared to a dying man, and the orchestral line thickens and thins like gentle pulsing heartbeats, the voice intoning a typical Schoeck melodic line above, meditating on a few notes, a few intervals.... I can't think of a song in the entire canon of German lied which moves me like this one does, but the cycle as a whole is consistently good throughout. From that point on I was hooked and have amassed a nice little collection of Schoeck, about 15 discs I suppose now, mostly the songs, a couple of operas, concerti, not the quartets though, I'm afraid - to me, Schoeck is most himself in the lied form. The newish ECM Notturno disc is very fine indeed, maybe even better than the older Mertens recording I had already, though it's hard to tell precisely why - greater translucency in the quartet 'accompaniment' (inverted commas necessary, I think), more flexibility and variety in the voice. I'd recommend that and Schmidt's Elegie to anyone, for Schoeck at his most intense and finest.

I remember getting the CD on your recommendation perhaps 10 years ago, but have not managed to listen to it yet.   :-[

Offline val

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 02:30:10 AM »
The Notturno is a very impressive work, based on splendid poems of Lenau. The 2nd movement is very strange - "Der Traum war so wild".

But to me, the masterpieces of Schoeck are the cycles of Lieder, Unter Sternen and Lebendig Begraben.

I only heard one of his operas, Penthesilea, very dramatic and expressionist.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 05:08:43 AM »

But to me, the masterpieces of Schoeck are the cycles of Lieder, Unter Sternen and Lebendig Begraben.

For me too.

And the operas. And the song cycle Lebendig Begraben. Firstrate stuff!

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 10:08:28 AM »
I remember getting the CD on your recommendation perhaps 10 years ago, but have not managed to listen to it yet.   :-[

!!!!

Listen to it. Tonight. You will not be disappointed. No. Excuses.
Geologist.

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Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2010, 10:10:10 AM »
Have you heard the cello music? There's a few albums.

I've heard the cello concerto which is far from his best (the much earlier violin concerto is marvelous though), and the cello sonata, his last piece is rather weak. The other cello pieces are all quite minor I think.
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Scarpia

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2010, 11:03:06 AM »
!!!!

Listen to it. Tonight. You will not be disappointed. No. Excuses.

But I was going to listen to Janacek tonight!  :'(

Offline The new erato

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2010, 11:18:47 AM »
But I was going to listen to Janacek tonight!  :'(
Well you can choose between House of the dead and Buried Alive. Gloomy prospects.

Scarpia

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Re: Schoeck's Chateau
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2010, 11:28:04 AM »
Well you can choose between House of the dead and Buried Alive. Gloomy prospects.

The Cunning Little Vixen, less gloomy.

snyprrr

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2010, 01:19:41 AM »
I got the Elegie. CPO.



I'm not,... ready for it right now. ::)hmmm...lost in trans...

I'm supposed to instantly like this, no? I feel embarassed.



Is this similar to Faure's Horizon Chimerique?

Offline Guido

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Re: Schoeck Treatment
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2010, 03:55:23 AM »
Are these not the most gorgeous songs for baritone and orchestra ever? The infinite variety of colour and mood within the one general tone of the songs, the fragrant pulsating orchestration? Zweifelnder Wunsch and Herbstgefuhl 2 - these are the two pinnacles of the cycle in my estimation, but every one's a jewel.

Hope you grow to like it!
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away