Audiences hate modern classical music because their brains cannot cope

[Jo498]

I should mention something about coping:

I have occasionally played parts of Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to my 8th Grade Latin classes, after they have translated parts of the Latin poem, which Carter used as his inspiration.

What poem is that? (If I search for the title, I only get hits for the Carter piece). And what does it mean: I am the price of the flow of hope? does not really make sense...

[James]

It was more to do with my general thinking about art (hopefully in the connect of the main topic of this thread), and my gradual realization over the years of the futility of arguing about it.

Futility? .. Nah discourse on it is very useful/vital, and a big part of it's bread and butter.

[James]

Yes, we were talking about that earlier on - one point of view was that repetition and familiarity can play a very important role. But I suggest that there has to be some initial spark of interest for one to move onto a second or third listening.

Analysis & playing it yourself also helps.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

What poem is that? (If I search for the title, I only get hits for the Carter piece). And what does it mean: I am the price of the flow of hope? does not really make sense...

Close, but "no prize"! It's "I am the prize of flowing hope." It's from a  Latin poem, "Bulla" ("Bubble") by a 17th-century English writer, Richard Crashaw.  One of Carter's greatest works, imnsho.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

I suppose you mean Baroque, Classical or Romantic music.

Of course I did. Something like "This has been going on for too long, it's high time that it ends!" (reaction to Dvorak's SQs) or "What's the point of all this, I wonder?" (reaction to Niels Gade's Symphonies). But it was never something like "I must turn it off right now!" or "I'm done with this work / composer for good and I won''t be listening to it / his music ever again!"

Well, exactly. If it's not strongly repulsive, I usually give it a second try, or even third.

When played on harpsichord it fits in your description exactly, but on piano there is quite a different matter. I instantly liked Maria Tipo, or Rosalynd Tureck, or Murray Perahia or Sviatoslav Richter.

Can't say he is among my faves but I like his music --- like, not love, mind you.

BTW, my first reaction to music falls basically into 5 categories:

1. Love: "Wow! This is absolutely great and I wouldn't want to be without it!"

2. Like : "This I'm certainly going to listen to at least a second time!"

3. Not dislike: "If I ever feel like listening to it again I will!"

4. Mild rejection, Rossini manner: "this is too intricate to be judged at a first hearing, but I shall not give it a second."

5. Outright rejection, Florestan manner: "This is garbage and I'll be damned if I ever waste my time on it anymore."

RE: #5.  I am old and filled with the recollection of composers and works that I formerly - foolishly, erroneously, often embarrassingly - disdained and now embrace (read "yum-up") wholeheartedly. Consequently, I like to think my wee brain has learnt something : I have banished the word "hate" from my listening vocabulary and if I dislike a work now realize my response prob. says something more about me than the work in question - often, it's worth reflecting on my response.  More often than not, this process is rewarding (psychologically, self-knowledge, banishment of stupid prejudices) and can even alter first impressions (expanding my field of interest and musical delight) and making for a more positive attitude generally.  It's also compelled a greater tolerance for those whose opinions I don't share. How like me, unfortunately, they are.

[Florestan]

RE: #5.  I am old and filled with the recollection of composers and works that I formerly - foolishly, erroneously, often embarrassingly - disdained and now embrace (read "yum-up") wholeheartedly. Consequently, I like to think my wee brain has learnt something : I have banished the word "hate" from my listening vocabulary and if I dislike a work now realize my response prob. says something more about me than the work in question - often, it's worth reflecting on my response.  More often than not, this process is rewarding (psychologically, self-knowledge, banishment of stupid prejudices) and can even alter first impressions (expanding my field of interest and musical delight) and making for a more positive attitude generally.  It's also compelled a greater tolerance for those whose opinions I don't share. How like me, unfortunately, they are.

Just to clear off any possible misunderstanding:

1. I don´t *hate* any music. It´s just that in 30 years of listening I have learned enough about my tastes and preferences to know what I am probably going to like or dislike: all these years, not a single work that I initially rejected ever ended up as likeable, let alone a fave. And I agree wholeheartedly that this says more about me than about the work in question.

2. My general attitude is rather on the serene and cheerful side: I never had insomnia over not being able to like a musical work, nor did I ever hold a grudge against people who do like it. Raum für Alle hat die Erde.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

I have learned enough about my tastes and preferences to know what I am probably going to like or dislike: all these years, not a single work that I initially rejected ever ended up as likeable, let alone a fave.

You're still young yet.

[Cato]

What poem is that? (If I search for the title, I only get hits for the Carter piece). And what does it mean: I am the price of the flow of hope? does not really make sense...

Close, but "no prize"! It's "I am the prize of flowing hope." It's from a  Latin poem, "Bulla" ("Bubble") by a 17th-century English writer, Richard Crashaw.  One of Carter's greatest works, imnsho.

The poem is fairly long, and Carter picked just a few lines as inspirations for his work.

Check this for the entire Latin text:

https://books.google.com/books?id=z0JTAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=Richard+Crashaw+%22Bulla%22&source=bl&ots=HNB7UH2-lN&sig=L7Ne3l1iiJyL9ie_LCRICm44jRM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX6qb958nJAhXjjIMKHUspAT8Q6AEILzAC#v=onepage&q=Richard%20Crashaw%20%22Bulla%22&f=false

[Monsieur Croche]

" Audiences hate modern classical music because their brains cannot cope"

The poor dears.

Time for the kiddie pool...
with an attendant lifeguard.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I think we could usefully adapt the film ratings practice.

John Rutter's music, Rated G

Mine, Rated R (Wilful Dissonance, and Frequent Lack of Extra-Musical Narrative)

[Florestan]

Well, I think we could usefully adapt the film ratings practice.

John Rutter's music, Rated G

Mine, Rated R (Wilful Dissonance, and Frequent Lack of Extra-Musical Narrative)

Antonio Soler´s music for two harpsichords, rated XXX (copulation on public bulidings). 

[Monsieur Croche]

Well, I think we could usefully adapt the film ratings practice.

John Rutter's music, Rated G

Mine, Rated R (Wilful Dissonance, and Frequent Lack of Extra-Musical Narrative)

   

Q: I imagine along with John Rutter you include under that G-rating the likes of Morten Lauridsen?

Q: Does this rating system have a "G+" rating, you know, for things like John Williams' Star wars, all of Karl
Jenkins, etc?

Q: Is there a special rating category for that type of cotton candy pink modernism ala Eric 'Whitachords' Whitacre?


Best regards.

P.s. "Extramusical narrative." I've never understood how a non-translatable bunch of notes, which can't even be transliterated convincingly either, can truly import much of anything extramusical.
Extramusical:
lying outside the province of music
Extrinsic to a piece of music or outside the field of music
Well, good luck with that!

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Well, I think we could usefully adapt the film ratings practice.

John Rutter's music, Rated G

Mine, Rated R (Wilful Dissonance, and Frequent Lack of Extra-Musical Narrative)

Mine music needed to be heavily toned down in order to get that R rating

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Antonio Soler´s music for two harpsichords, rated XXX (copulation on public bulidings). 

More like two skeletons copulating on a tin roof!

[Abuelo Igor]

That's interesting because I've heard like a million times people dismissing modern stuff as "horror film music", to which I usually reply: "What's wrong with horror, in your view?" It seems that some people hear dissonances, irregular rhythms, quarter-tones and so on like a kind of aural equivalent of old-fashioned blood and gore.

[Monsieur Croche]

My music needs to be heavily toned down in order to get that R rating

Then we have the likes of former prodigy Emily Bear, the PR surrounding her as a child making of her the umpteenth "Next Mozart," whose largest job and claim to fame as an adult to date has been composing for Disney films.... G-rated all the way.

[Monsieur Croche]

That's interesting because I've heard like a million times people dismissing modern stuff as "horror film music", to which I usually reply: "What's wrong with horror, in your view?" It seems that some people hear dissonances, irregular rhythms, quarter-tones and so on like a kind of aural equivalent of old-fashioned blood and gore.

The modern and contemporary are not even 'horror,' or horror movie music, though horror movies are where many first heard anything like modern or contemporary classical music, and the choice of using that modernist vocabulary in horror / mystery / suspense films has [morphing more currently into 'had'] a sound psychological basis.

Music 'like that' was consciously chosen because its, harmony, rhythm, texture, was wholly unfamiliar to most of the general film-going public. If you want to underscore a film and create that psychic atmosphere in your audience, choose the most unfamiliar and unknown the most unlike that with which they are familiar. It is all about presenting something which is going to strongly disorient the viewer-listener that keeps them off-balance in a manner where that the darkest bit of common practice late romantic fare would not.

Ergo, "that's where they heard anything like first,' and wherefrom their associations of 'horror / mystery / suspense' comes. If that is your first impression, with those associations, that will linger.

If you already know a lot of that kind of repertoire and are generally familiar with its style, harmony and syntax before you ever heard it used to those purposes in a movie, then the intended effect of that kind of score on the part of the film makers is foiled, or defaults in a way to being "absent", and that makes for some inadvertently funny or downright distracting moments for those modern-contemporary informed viewers where that sort of music is used in various scenes of the film. This has led to many times where I would be watching a film with friends, and was laughing where no one else thought there was anything to laugh about.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Then we have the likes of former prodigy Emily Bear, the PR surrounding her as a child making of her the umpteenth "Next Mozart," whose largest job and claim to fame as an adult to date has been composing for Disney films.... G-rated all the way.

She is composing for Disney films? Why am I not surprised.....

[Monsieur Croche]

She is composing for Disney films? Why am I not surprised.....

Sorry, I was mistaken. There are comments from other musicians, including her teachers who work in prestigious music schools, that 'So much of her compositions are like movie soundtracks,' and she was approached by Disney about writing a soundtrack in 2014.

[Mirror Image]

Sorry, I was mistaken. There are comments from other musicians, including her teachers who work in prestigious music schools, that 'So much of her compositions are like movie soundtracks,' and she was approached by Disney about writing a soundtrack in 2014.

Well the girl is 14 so maybe we could cut her a little slack, eh?