Hans Rott (1858 - 1884)

[hbswebmaster]

Scots John,

I share your wild enthusiasm about the Rott symphony, and echo Johan about that triangle! I understand your perspective about Mahler taking Rott's ideas and  developing them in his own music, but I think that Mahler just went too far. Not just in his first two symphonies: he was still inserting melodies and harmonies from Rott's symphony into his own music up to the fifth and seventh symphonies! And if you think that I'm overstating, then just listen to the slow movement of Rott's string quartet, of which Mahler lifted about fifty consecutive seconds' worth, orchestrated it for full strings and inserted it bodily into the Adagietto of the fifth symphony. I was beginning to come over to your view until I heard that.

[mahler10th]

Scots John,
I share your wild enthusiasm about the Rott symphony, and echo Johan about that triangle! I understand your perspective about Mahler taking Rott's ideas and  developing them in his own music, but I think that Mahler just went too far. Not just in his first two symphonies: he was still inserting melodies and harmonies from Rott's symphony into his own music up to the fifth and seventh symphonies! And if you think that I'm overstating, then just listen to the slow movement of Rott's string quartet, of which Mahler lifted about fifty consecutive seconds' worth, orchestrated it for full strings and inserted it bodily into the Adagietto of the fifth symphony. I was beginning to come over to your view until I heard that.

Yes, I know about many of the Rott interpolations in Mahlers work, and I don't think your're overstating at all hbswebmaster .  They are as clear as hell  throughout Mahlers ouvre and it is surprising the extent Mahler was influenced by his old Roast Beef loving chum.  We do share the same view, but I am a late romantic softy and want to let Mahler away with it.   
It is a pity no-one likes the bloody triangle.   

[jwinter]

So, speaking as a big fan of Mahler & Bruckner who hasn't yet sampled any Rott, which one of the several recordings mentioned of the 1st symphony would you recommend as a starting point?

[mahler10th]

So, speaking as a big fan of Mahler & Bruckner who hasn't yet sampled any Rott, which one of the several recordings mentioned of the 1st symphony would you recommend as a starting point?

This one:

[asin]B0000016IH[/asin]

Yet to be outclassed imo.

[jwinter]

Thanks!

[Sergeant Rock]

So, speaking as a big fan of Mahler & Bruckner who hasn't yet sampled any Rott, which one of the several recordings mentioned of the 1st symphony would you recommend as a starting point?

Weigle. Not only cheap but has the most discrete triangle, a plus for me. (Sorry, John  )

[asin]B00096S2U0[/asin]


P.S. I see John, not unexpectedly, picks Segerstam, whose recording turns the Symphony into a Concerto for Triangle and Orchestra 

Sarge

[Brahmsian]

Thanks John for bringing this composer to our attention.  Wow, I had no idea he died so very young.  What a tragedy! 

Looking forward to exploring some of his works, as I know you've mentioned him numerous times.

[mahler10th]

Weigle. Not only cheap but has the most discrete triangle, a plus for me. (Sorry, John  )

[asin]B00096S2U0[/asin]

P.S. I see John, not unexpectedly, picks Segerstam, whose recording turns the Symphony into a Concerto for Triangle and Orchestra 

Sarge

Yes, this Weigle recording is good, I suppose, for a 'starter.'         But for me, it hasn't got the same scope of musical vision and gravitas that Segerstam brings to it.  Please don't ask what I mean by 'scope of musical vision' sarge, I have no idea.    

[jlaurson]

Weigle. Not only cheap but has the most discrete triangle, a plus for me. (Sorry, John  )

Sarge

Seconded.

[Scarpia]

So, speaking as a big fan of Mahler & Bruckner who hasn't yet sampled any Rott, which one of the several recordings mentioned of the 1st symphony would you recommend as a starting point?

I got this one

[asin]B0000Y37GU[/asin]

not because of any careful analysis, but because I stumbled upon a cheap copy at Berkshire.  After listening to it, I had the impression that it was a fine work.  I have no idea how this recording compares with any others.

[hbswebmaster]

The Samuel's a fine recording and performance - it's how I got to know it; he edits the triangle part a little. I agree about the Segerstam; has great presence. Dennis Russell Davies is also good, except that he inserts two cymbal clashes at the climax of the last movement.

I also tend to forgive Mahler (a little), Scots John; he's great fun to play. I've played various percussion instruments in 1, 2, 5 and 6 over the years.

[Scarpia]

But for me, it hasn't got the same scope of musical vision and gravitas that Segerstam brings to it.  Please don't ask what I mean by 'scope of musical vision' sarge, I have no idea.    

Based on other comments on the Segerstam, I infer "scope of music vision" means an incessant metallic tinkling.   

[Cato]

I got this one

[asin]B0000Y37GU[/asin]

not because of any careful analysis, but because I stumbled upon a cheap copy at Berkshire.  After listening to it, I had the impression that it was a fine work.  I have no idea how this recording compares with any others.

This was the premiere recording of the work, as I recall: the "Cincinnati Philharmonia" is based at the College Conservatory of Music at the University of Cincinnati.

Segerstam's Norrköping group is barn-burning excellent, as are the interpretations from Weigle and the most recent one with Paavo Järvi.  There are things to like in all of them: the Samuels I have never heard.  Weigle offers the Prelude and the Julius Caesar.

Concerning Mahler's wife: to be sure, historians have shown that her memory and at times her opinions were awry.  I have much less skepticism about her Hans Rott story: why would she invent Mahler giving such praise to his former and deceased colleague?  Why bother including anything about Rott, whom few people remembered by the time she was writing?

Here is an interesting discussion of the Mahler/Rott Problem:

An excerpt:

As Mr de la Grange pointed out to me via email back in February when we first began Rott discussions here, Mahler's firs major work, Das Klagende Lied, was finished at more or less the same time as the Rott Symphony and is a far more polished and complete piece of music. And it is echt Mahler.

As I tried to explain earlier in this series, I think Rott himself became a powerful symbol for Mahler- the fallen brother in arms, the hopeless idealist who couldn't deal with the hard edges of a cynical musical establishment, the musical sibling Mahler outlived. Rott, and therefore Rott's music, becomes a symbol of hope and fragility, of idealism and victimization, of aspiration and of guilt. When Mahler evokes the memory of Rott, he is talking about redemption and about his own attempt heal the wounds of the past.  So, yes, Mahler's incorporation of themes from Rott is consistent with his quotes, references and shout outs from other composers, but Rott was clearly a special case. When Mahler refers to Rott, he is not merely borrowing musical material, he is referencing a rather complex mythology he constructed around the memory of his friend."

See:
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2010/04/27/a-flawed-perspective-mahler-and-rott/

[CriticalI]

I'm considering getting a cheap copy of the symphony. Can anyone compare Weigle and Samuel?

[jlaurson]

I'm considering getting a cheap copy of the symphony. Can anyone compare Weigle and Samuel?

Yes. Samuel is a fine, honorable effort, but Weigle superior in every way.

[mahler10th]

I'm considering getting a cheap copy of the symphony. Can anyone compare Weigle and Samuel?

There's not much difference in price between them all.  I ALWAYS recommend the Segerstam...it is still my reference copy.  I have all Hans Rott releases, and all available live performances of his symphony.  Segerstam may be the last conductor one might associate with Hans Rott, but by golly he most definitely still holds the best release out there.  Of Weigle and Samuel I would opt for Weigle - but given the choice, I would always opt for Segerstam and the Norrköping-ers.  Until, that is, someone can nail it even better, and that is always possible.

However, if you don't like triangles,    go for Weigle. 

[CriticalI]

Thanks, guys - Weigle it is

[moi]

And if you think that I'm overstating, then just listen to the slow movement of Rott's string quartet, of which Mahler lifted about fifty consecutive seconds' worth, orchestrated it for full strings and inserted it bodily into the Adagietto of the fifth symphony.

I've just listened to the string quartet for the first time and couldn't believe what I was hearing. Baffled...

[jlaurson]

Dip Your Ears, No. 149 (Hans Rott Returns)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/dip-your-ears-no-149-hans-rott-returns.html

[jlaurson]

At the Konzerthaus:



Ionarts-at-Large: Rott World Premiere, Widmann
& Martinů with the ORF RSO

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2014/06/ionarts-at-large-rott-world-premiere.html