The Romantics in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 09, 2007, 07:07:54 AM

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FideLeo

#120
Quote from: Apollo on July 23, 2008, 07:01:47 AM
Same at Gramophone FWIW.

I just listened to the disc and agree that it is an excellent performance.  Sound quality is really fine as well.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

mn dave

Quote from: traverso on July 23, 2008, 07:06:48 AM
I just listened to the disc and agree that it is a fascinating performance/recording.

I have it too and can agree with you.

FideLeo

Quote from: Apollo on July 23, 2008, 07:09:21 AM
I have it too and can agree with you.

Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Bunny

Quote from: traverso on July 23, 2008, 07:15:19 AM
Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 

I picked it up a few weeks ago and was delighted with the music.  It may not be Wagner or Debussy, but it's fun; and even better than Hewitt's Chabrier.  ;)

Thank goodness, something we don't have to fight about! 

karlhenning

Quote from: traverso on July 23, 2008, 07:15:19 AM
Yup this one is quite uncontroversial.  Even the classicstoday crank Hurwitz gave it a 10/10. 

(* chortle *)

FideLeo

Quote from: karlhenning on July 23, 2008, 09:02:46 AM
(* chortle *)

Not that Hurwitz's opinion matters much at all around here...  :D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Que

#126
Just picked up on this new release at the Purchases thread - my thanks to hautbois! :)

Schumann by Staier, whom I consider to be one of the best pianists around seems a major event.
Would welcome comments by those who've already heard it!
Staier plays an Érard from 1837. Clara Schumann reportedly used such an instrument for her concerts.



                click picture

Q

Bunny

#127
I see that the release date was Nov. 12, 2008 so this won't be available in the US yet, so I will have to wait. :(

But only until Dec. 19.  :D

Bulldog

Quote from: Bunny on November 17, 2008, 06:58:37 AM
I see that the release date was Nov. 12, 2008 so this won't be available in the US yet, so I will have to wait. :(

But only until Dec. 19.  :D

Based on the samples, Dec. 19 can't come soon enough.

Superhorn

   Norrington's ongoing Mahler cycle with the Stuttgart radio orchestra suppresses vibrato; so far, I have only heard a radio broadcst of the fourth, and the lack of vibrato sounded rather disconcerting to me, but then I grew up accustomed to string vibrato.
  But the ironic thing is that David Hurwitz pointed out in one of his scathing reviews of Norrington's Mahler, is that there are stories of Mahler himself rehearsing the New York Philharmonic circs 1909 or so, and asking the strings for a great deal of vibrato ! So much for Norrington's "authenticity"!
  Another example of HIP gone to absurd lengths was the review in the New York Times of a concert in Carnegie hall back in the 90s by the Bonn Beethovenhalle orchestra under its then music director Dennis Russell Davies.
  The horn section played Schumann's hellishly difficult Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. But the reviewer, whose name I don't remember, stated that it would have been preferable to have heard an "authentic" performance on natural horns.
  He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !
Silly critic.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !

Really? Has anyone tried to play it on natural horns? What about the Gardiner recording? Is that on valved horns? With crooks?

Que

Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
The horn section played Schumann's hellishly difficult Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. But the reviewer, whose name I don't remember, stated that it would have been preferable to have heard an "authentic" performance on natural horns.
  He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 17, 2008, 10:03:56 AM
Really? Has anyone tried to play it on natural horns? What about the Gardiner recording? Is that on valved horns? With crooks?

The four solo parts are for the modern chromatic valve-horn (relatively new at the time), while the two horns in the orchestra are natural horns. Schumann calls for a large orchestra, including piccolo, two trumpets, three trombones, and two tympani. Generally, when the solo horns are playing, the orchestra horns rest.

Q

Superhorn

  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Natural horns are limited to the notes of the harmonic series, but the player can produce other pitches by hand stopping, which changes the sound of the horn. But Schumann specifically wrote parts that are simply not playable on the natural instrument.
   There is also a brand new period performance conducted by Emmanuel Krivine with  a group whose name I don't recall, coupled with an HIP  Dvorak New World Symphony !   David Hurwitz was not impressed by either performance.
  It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!

Que

#133
Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 01:45:30 PM
It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!

I doubt it, since Hurwitz trashes practically every HIP recording he can lay his hands on.

It seems he thinks that orchestras with period instruments are as a rule inferior to other orchestras. Quote from his review of the LvB 1th & 6th by Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra (sic!). Hilarious, if ask me...

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here".

Sure looks like another kind of "political correctness". ::)

Q

Bulldog

Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 01:45:30 PM
  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Natural horns are limited to the notes of the harmonic series, but the player can produce other pitches by hand stopping, which changes the sound of the horn. But Schumann specifically wrote parts that are simply not playable on the natural instrument.
   There is also a brand new period performance conducted by Emmanuel Krivine with  a group whose name I don't recall, coupled with an HIP  Dvorak New World Symphony !   David Hurwitz was not impressed by either performance.
  It takes guts to stand up to HIP political correctness!

Tell me - what risks does Hurwitz take by talking negatively about HIP recordings?

Que

#135
Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
He was trying to show his pious support of HIP. But this work was written in 1849 as a showpiece for valved horns, and is unplayable on natural horns !
Silly critic.

Absolutely. But look it at this way: playing music written for valved horns on natural horns is just as silly as the other way around... ;D  As is for instance the case with Brahms' horn trio. Brahms specifically wrote this for natural horn - while the valved horn was already around. Still, on the vast majority recordings of this music it is played on the "wrong" instrument.

Fortunately some get it right:



The 2nd picture is a bit blurry: Lowell Greer (natural horn), Steven Lubin (piano) and Stephanie Chase (violin)

Q

Superhorn

   That  still  does  not  necessarily  mean  that   Brahms  would  have  disliked  performances  on  a  valved  horn  or  with  a  violin  with  steel  strings,  or  a  modern piano  if  he  could come  back  and  hear  them  today.
  And  even  a  performance  today  with  a  natural  horn,  gut  strings  and  period  piano  does  not  guarante  that  the  INTERPRETATION  would  be   to  Brahms  liking.  just using  period  instruments  is  no  guarantee  of  anything.
  Just  going  through  the  motions  of  what  is  currently  believed  to  be   correct performance  practice  and using  period  instruments  is  not  enough.
   Hurwitz  does  not  dislike  all  HIP  recordings  by  any  means;  he  just  has  the  sense  not  to  praise them  merely for  using  them.

    ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Superhorn on November 17, 2008, 01:45:30 PM
  Yes, the Gardiner recording on Archiv WAS played with valved horns.
Schumann wrote the work to show what valved horns can do.
Would that be valved horns in F or double horns ?

The new erato

Quote from: Que on November 17, 2008, 11:22:36 PM
Lowell Greer (natural horn), Steven Lubin (piano) and Stephanie Chase (violin)

Q
Is that a good recording/performance? I need a disc of th Beethoven work, and wouldn't mind a Brahms version on an natural horn either.

Bulldog

Quote from: Superhorn on November 18, 2008, 07:44:11 AM
Hurwitz  does  not  dislike  all  HIP  recordings  by  any  means;  he  just  has  the  sense  not  to  praise them  merely for  using  them.


I don't know of any reviewer who praises all HIP recordings.  Do you?