The Romantics in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 09, 2007, 07:07:54 AM

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milk

#320
Other questions to throw out here while I'm at it: Has anyone seen any HIP recordings of Faure's piano quartets? Does anyone have any opinion of these pieces or this recording (An Erard c. 1900 is used)?
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Leo K.

#321
My listening begins this morning...  ;D

Brahms: Symphony No.4 in E Minor
John Eliot Gardiner




I'm finally hearing Gardiner's Brahms cycle, and I'm simply amazed by what I'm hearing. My usual go-to recordings of Brahms are Furtwangler, Bernstein, Abbado and Rattle's new recording. I usually like my Brahms mushy, gray, and romantic. With the exception of "gray" this is how I like my Mahler too, but recently I heard Norrington's approach to Mahler, through the Mahler 2 and 9, and found myself intrigued by the objectivity, and transparent clearness, with no vibrato. Since I'm a fan of HIP in classical and early romantic, I guess my enjoyment was predictable. So, this last week I was ready to try this HIP approach to another obsession of mine: Brahms.

This morning, I'm focusing on the Gardiner's Brahms' 4th in E Minor, and wow, this recording is a revelation. Leaner, sharper, transparent, colorful, and nothing I've heard before in this Symphony. This is my first taste of HIP Brahms, and I'm glad to hear how different Brahms' orchestration sounds, how colorful in timbre, how exhilarating the texture of the orchestration as performed here. The vibrato-less texture is like a cold, breath of fresh air, with atmosphere and rough edges to the tone! The themes and construction of the musical phrases sound no less the powerful with this quality of transparency. The deep, inner structures of the musical argument are heard in the orchestration without losing subtlety, and Brahms keeps his masculine sound, AND his rough, unsentimental-yet-sentimental manner, intact.

Brahms: Symphony No.1 in C minor
John Eliot Gardiner




Okay, my experience with the Brahms 4 (as seen above) was so enjoyable that I went right to Gardiner's rendition of the 1st Symphony in C Minor. Gardiner's choice of Choral extras are a revelation as well, and add to the overall experience of the feature presentation of the symphony. The program for this recording is as follows:

Brahms: Begräbnisgesang, Op.13 ('Funeral Anthem')
Mendelssohn: Mitten wir im Leben sind ('In the midst of life') Op.23, No.3
Brahms: Schicksalslied ('Song of Destiny'), Op.54
Brahms: Symphony No. 1 in C Minor, Op.68

John Eliot Gardiner states in an interview:

"When we approach Brahms nowadays the temptation is to concentrate exclusively on his orchestral output - the overtures, concertos and symphonies - and replicate a safe 'meat-and-two-veg' approach. But the more I thought about it, the more convinced I became that a worthwhile approach would be to juxtapose his symphonies with vocal music - music which Brahms himself cherished (studied, edited and conducted) - and so to set them in a historical Brahms-specific context rather presenting an encyclopaedic survey of all his orchestral output".

I don't  listen to HIP and imagine this is what the music originally sounded like, I listen to HIP to hear the texture of these old instruments, and that said, the result here is uplifting, and the orchestration textured and organic. I LOVE no vibrato, as the tone of no vibrato sounds like a transparent wind, a breath of fresh air. This performance exhibits this wonderful sound, that is heard with these old instruments.

8)

Gurn Blanston

#322
I have Gardiner's Schumann symphonies, and they actually sold the works to me. Of course, the Brahms' don't need any selling from MY POV, but still, I can easily see myself liking these (since my favorites right now are Mackerras / Scottish). Thanks, Leo, hadn't noted these before. :)

8)

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English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
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Gurn Blanston

These, actually:

[asin]B000006PKI[/asin]
&
[asin]B000003D2C[/asin]

8)

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Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Leo K.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 07, 2011, 09:06:40 AM
I have Gardiner's Schumann symphonies, and they actually sold the works to me. Of course, the Brahms' don't need any selling from MY POV, but still, I can easily see myself liking these (since my favorites right now are Mackerras / Prague). Thanks, Leo, hadn't noted these before. :)

8)

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Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante

Gurn, if you like the Gardiner Schumann set (as I do too), I'm SURE you will love the Brahms cycle by Gardiner.

I really LOVE that Schumann set too!  8)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Leo K on May 07, 2011, 09:10:21 AM
Gurn, if you like the Gardiner Schumann set (as I do too), I'm SURE you will love the Brahms cycle by Gardiner.

I really LOVE that Schumann set too!  8)

Yeah, I guess now I'm gonna have to commit. :-\      :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson/Levin - K 316a 365 Concerto #10 in Eb for 2 Pianos 2nd mvmt - Andante
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Lethevich

I really dig those Gardiner Brahms issues too. If anything, it is the intelligent couplings that keep bringing me back to the discs. The performances are fine, but not as revelatory as I could have perhaps expected - but the typical Gardiner quality is there. The beautifully selected and performed choral pieces accompanying each disc, however, are an ideal antedote to a millionth recording of the Tragic Overture.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Leo K.

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on May 07, 2011, 03:54:42 PM
I really dig those Gardiner Brahms issues too. If anything, it is the intelligent couplings that keep bringing me back to the discs. The performances are fine, but not as revelatory as I could have perhaps expected - but the typical Gardiner quality is there. The beautifully selected and performed choral pieces accompanying each disc, however, are an ideal antedote to a millionth recording of the Tragic Overture.

You are right, the couplings on Gardiner's Brahms disks really enhance his performances of the Symphonies, and partly why I'm drooling over this cycle  ;D

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Leo K on May 08, 2011, 06:17:20 AM
You are right, the couplings on Gardiner's Brahms disks really enhance his performances of the Symphonies, and partly why I'm drooling over this cycle  ;D

Wonder if they will soon be out in a box set like the Schumann is. :)

8)

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Now playing:
NYPO \ Bernstein \ Martina Arroyo \ Regina Sarfaty \ Nicholas di Virgilio \ Norman Scott - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Opus106

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 08, 2011, 08:19:14 AM
Wonder if they will soon be out in a box set like the Schumann is. :)

Inevitable. :) But the news (or not quite) is that he has/is also recorded/recording/about to record the German Requiem this year. If they would come out with just the symphonies in a box right now, I won't complain. 0:)
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on May 08, 2011, 08:29:53 AM
Inevitable. :) But the news (or not quite) is that he has/is also recorded/recording/about to record the German Requiem this year. If they would come out with just the symphonies in a box right now, I won't complain. 0:)

Yeah, that would work for me too. Already got plenty of singing on there as it is... :)

8)

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Now playing:
NYPO \ Bernstein - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
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milk

#331
I've got all the Koch recordings but I saw this and couldn't resist downloading it. Looking forward to listening to it tomorrow:


These are selections from Album Für Die Jugend, Op. 68, as well as Kinderszenen, Op. 15.


Leo K.

Quote from: milk on May 08, 2011, 09:36:46 AM
I've got all the Koch recordings but I saw this and couldn't resist downloading it. Looking forward to listening to it tomorrow:


These are selections from Album Für Die Jugend, Op. 68, as well as Kinderszenen, Op. 15.

Thanks for the heads up on this  8)


milk

#333
Quote from: Leo K on May 08, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
Thanks for the heads up on this  8)

Your welcome. I'm enjoying it today. I've got Schumann on the brain. The Staier "Tribute to Bach" along with Koch and Landgraf's Violin recording are amongst my favorites. This may become a favorite also.

Here's something else I'm looking into:


These are Bach arrangements by romantic composers:
Bach, J S:
Partita for solo violin No. 2 in D minor, BWV1004: Chaconne
with piano accompaniments by Mendelssohn, Ressel and Schumann
Partita for solo violin No. 3 in E major, BWV1006: Preludio
with accompaniment by Mendelssohn
Sonata for Violin & Harpsichord No. 3 in E major, BWV1016: Adagio ma non tanto - Allegro
with piano accompaniments by Schumann
Sonata for solo violin No. 2 in A minor, BWV1003: Andante sostenuto
with piano accompaniments by Schumann
Mendelssohn:
Violin Sonata in F major (1838): Allegro vivace


milk

Concerning the "Romantic Bach" album, I'd just love to read comments from people who really know about music. I don't know what to make of it. I'm definitely inclined to purchase it. I really want to know more about how to approach this curious recording.

milk


There is so much beauty and charm in Schumann's Studies for pedal piano. I've been enjoying listening to these two recordings. One employs two wonderful sounding period pianos (La Gaia Scienza, Federica Valli & Lorenzo Ghielmi) and the other uses a pedal piano (Martin Schmeding). Nice to have both!

I don't know of any other recordings of these pieces using a pedal piano.

kishnevi

Quote from: milk on June 22, 2011, 04:00:13 AM

There is so much beauty and charm in Schumann's Studies for pedal piano. I've been enjoying listening to these two recordings. One employs two wonderful sounding period pianos (La Gaia Scienza, Federica Valli & Lorenzo Ghielmi) and the other uses a pedal piano (Martin Schmeding). Nice to have both!

I don't know of any other recordings of these pieces using a pedal piano.

Not pedal piano, but on organ--
There is this relatively new release (ie, one week ago), about which I know nothing:

and this one which I have, and hesitate to suggest, since it didn't really impress me.  Either Schumann was not that inspired in these pieces or Hospach-Martini had done him a great disservice.  The organ, however,  has been restored to a state approximating what it was like during Schumann's life, so in a way it qualifies for the period performance label.

Mandryka

I was listening to some Chopin  Op 48/1 recordings today. There are some really special ones on a modern instrument. Listen to how Sofronitsky played it in 1949 for example -- the way he disrupts the singing line with a threatening rumble in the bass, right from the start. Not a moment of solace in this interpretation. And listen to Moravec -- the tragedy when his disarmingly innocent plea in the central section is crushed, destroyed, annihilated by a machine gun's rapid rattle.

But the HIP recordings I have are all bland by comparison -- I have Boegner and Van Oort. As far as I can hear these guys have zilch to say with the music -- they just type it out. And, more importantly maybe,  you gain zilch by the sonorities of the old  instrument.  You might prefer the sound of their old pianos to Sofronitsky's or Moravec's. If so, fair enough. But the tonal qualities of their pianos don't and anything to the poetry, the meaning,  of the music. It's just a different tone.

The only HIP Chopin recording I have heard where I remember thinking "wow, this is something new and special; this is something where the piano is making a real imprtant difference to the meaning of the music" is Lubimov's Berceuse.

Maybe I've missed something though.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Drasko

Of hip 48/1s I thought Olejniczak to be fine. Very slow and very sad opening, with sense of resignation prevailing over whole piece, so when he whips up the storm sounds more like hollow rage than putting up a fight. Toward the ending gets bit plain.
Can't say that his piano adds per se anything to his interpretation (for me at least).

Can be streamed here:
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl//chopin/composition/detail/id/242

kishnevi

Quote from: Mandryka on June 23, 2011, 12:28:47 PM
I was listening to some Chopin  Op 48/1 recordings today. There are some really special ones on a modern instrument. Listen to how Sofronitsky played it in 1949 for example -- the way he disrupts the singing line with a threatening rumble in the bass, right from the start. Not a moment of solace in this interpretation. And listen to Moravec -- the tragedy when his disarmingly innocent plea in the central section is crushed, destroyed, annihilated by a machine gun's rapid rattle.

But the HIP recordings I have are all bland by comparison -- I have Boegner and Van Oort. As far as I can hear these guys have zilch to say with the music -- they just type it out. And, more importantly maybe,  you gain zilch by the sonorities of the old  instrument.  You might prefer the sound of their old pianos to Sofronitsky's or Moravec's. If so, fair enough. But the tonal qualities of their pianos don't and anything to the poetry, the meaning,  of the music. It's just a different tone.

The only HIP Chopin recording I have heard where I remember thinking "wow, this is something new and special; this is something where the piano is making a real imprtant difference to the meaning of the music" is Lubimov's Berceuse.

Maybe I've missed something though.

Perhaps the player's affinities really lie elsewhere.  I have very little in the way of mid 19th century HIP--some chamber music and one CD of orchestral Liszt that includes Totentanz with a period appropriate Erard.  The differences from modern instruments to me are not important enough to justify them as anything except a change of pace.

OTOH, fortepiano performances of works before, say, 1825,  do  have a substantial impact.    I was listening to  some of van Oort's Mozart set last night--impressed so much that  I abandoned my earlier listening plans for the evening and played three CDs straight through; would have played a fourth one except it was getting to be too late.   Done so well it made me wonder if I even want to hear these works on a modern piano.