Hyperion to retain Robert King titles in its catalog

[Lethevich]

I assume that King will appeal this conviction ........ a conviction that lacks any shred of physical evidence and which is based on memories dating back more than a dozen years .......

I guess the kids are kicking themselves that they didn't ask him to video it for later use in court.

[FideLeo]

I guess the kids are kicking themselves that they didn't ask him to video it for later use in court.

Apparently! 

[PSmith08]

Certainly at $22 per CD I doubt there are too many takers.

In the case of King, his Monteverdi - especially the Vespro - was already in a crowded field. In fact, Paul McCreesh's new issue took more risks and was, ultimately, more satisfying from an artistic standpoint - though, musically speaking, there's room for debate - than King's sort of cut-and-dry issue. I might say, King's recording was competing more with Gardiner and Parrott than McCreesh and some of the other groups today. I digress.

In any event, removing the King titles would punish his players and performers who did a fantastic job, and - one senses - that they would have done so even if John Q. Public were directing them. While artists should, by no means, be considered above the law or beyond good and evil, there should be some effort to distinguish the man from the art. Otherwise, a sizable chunk of the DGG catalog would have to be recalled.

[Que]

I assume that King will appeal this conviction ........ a conviction that lacks any shred of physical evidence and which is based on memories dating back more than a dozen years .......

I don't see a problem with that as such - witnesses are witnesses and a sworn testimony is evidence. Physical evidence often lacks in cases of sexual assault, before the advent of DNA tests unfortunately even more so.

But of course it does complicated things - witnesses could be manipulated. But I would assume people will properly remember being sexually assaulted - even more than a decade later. It is not uncommon that children that are assaulted keep quiet out of fear and/or shame, and only come forward years later.
Anyway, it's for the court to decide on the value of their testimonies. I'm not familiar with the British legal system, so don't know if it was the judge or the jury that decided on this. (We don't have juries in the Netherlands..)

Q

[knight66]

Q, quote from The Times item....

'Sarah Whitehouse, prosecuting, told the jury: "It flies in the face of reason that five people should independently make these allegations up."

The five-man, seven-woman jury, which spent more than 21 hours over five days considering the evidence, agreed. The defendant, who has presented programmes for the BBC and toured the world with several orchestras, gasped, swayed and paled visibly as the first guilty verdict was announced.

Altogether he was convicted of 14 counts of indecent assault over an 11-year period'

I see no reason to assume the charges were insubstantial. We would need to read the trial in detail to come to any conclusion other than what has been found by the jury.

Mike

[BachQ]

I don't see a problem with that as such - witnesses are witnesses and a sworn testimony is evidence. Physical evidence often lacks in cases of sexual assault, before the advent of DNA tests unfortunately even more so.

But of course it does complicated things - witnesses could be manipulated.

I'm always a bit skeptical when victims wait over a decade to level charges ....... or they wait until the alleged perpetrator becomes rich and famous, when a civil suit would reap them a large monetary windfall ........ not to mention when zealous prosecutors take liberties in coaching witnesses .........

My primary concern is to ensure procedural fairness so as to avoid a substantial injustice ........ And that is why an appeal is most appropriate in cases like this .........

[Todd]

I'm always a bit skeptical when victims wait over a decade to level charges

I would think skepticism should depend at least somewhat on the age of the victims.  12-16 year olds - despite their self-perceived invulnerability - are quite easy to intimidate.  Were the discussion about actions he may have taken with a then 25-year old over twenty years ago I'd be more skeptical. 

I don't know if King is in fact guilty - though a jury has certainly deemed him so.  As such, 45 months is a ridiculously light prison sentence.  People who commit these crimes should face much more severe penalties.  He should get 20-30 years or more.  But then, I have no pity for child molesters and freely admit to that.

His crimes should have no influence on the availability of his recordings though, especially if he's not getting any royalties.

[knight66]

I am very much with Todd here and the gap of years to accusation is basically normal. Many young people bottle these things up and it is not until years later they get to the point of either having to or feeling safe enough to confront what happened to them. Most such victims go through young adulthood feeling they were to blame. Once their own lives run into the sand, there often comes a point where this issue needs to be dealt with so they can move on and function more happily.

There are no signs here of a civil suit. Also, an appeal, had he really done what he has been found guilty of, would put the victims through the whole process again.

I agree the sentence looks light, but we don't know all the factors.

Mike

[Bunny]

I am very much with Todd here and the gap of years to accusation is basically normal. Many young people bottle these things up and it is not until years later they get to the point of either having to or feeling safe enough to confront what happened to them. Most such victims go through young adulthood feeling they were to blame. Once their own lives run into the sand, there often comes a point where this issue needs to be dealt with so they can move on and function more happily.

There are no signs here of a civil suit. Also, an appeal, had he really done what he has been found guilty of, would put the victims through the whole process again.

I agree the sentence looks light, but we don't know all the factors.

Mike

I agree that the amount of time between the abuse and the report is normal.  There is so much shame associated with the event that frequently the victims want only to hide it and forget it if possible.  Unfortunately, such conflicts don't want to stay hidden forever. 

Light sentences were very common in cases like this years ago in the USA.  They were the result of judges who were unfamiliar with the psychological makeup of the offenders as well as a desire to believe that such predators, especially if they came from a higher socio-economic class could and would be able to change their behavior.  Unfortunately, time has shown that despite best efforts, almost all child molesters and pedophiles are incapable of changing their desires, and have very limited success in changing their behavior. Frequently they see no wrong in their behavior.  They are like alcoholics who must swear off all alcohol, or quitting smokers who look longingly at a carton of cigarettes on the shelf of a deli.  What boggles my imagination is that anyone could believe that a man in his mid 30s would have experienced such a sea change in his sexual appetites so as to become a normal heterosexual when his whole life he had been homosexual who was attracted to teenagers.  I would believe in King's rehabilitation more if he had come out as a gay man with more normal sexual appetites.

[knight66]

There is growing evidence that behaviour in this area can be modified with support in almost half of offenders. But the first step is to admit to the problem and if an appeal is being contemplated, the starting blocks have not been reached.

Mike

[BachQ]

There are no signs here of a civil suit.

(It's possible that under UK law the civil statute of limitations has expired ........ so there never will be a suit)

[knight66]

To be honest, I don't know what those limitations are. No doubt if he could be sued, there will be plenty of advice for those who would want to do so. An alternative may be the criminal injuries compensation route. That does not affect the guilty party as far as I know; the compensation is set by a court and met from the public purse. This enables compensation to be paid where the guilty party would possibly be unable to pay it.

Mike

[Bunny]

There is growing evidence that behaviour in this area can be modified with support in almost half of offenders. But the first step is to admit to the problem and if an appeal is being contemplated, the starting blocks have not been reached.

Mike

I'd love to know how that's possible. 

I am extremely skeptical of any research that shows that child molesters or pedophiles can be made to change their sexual tastes, absent the use of hormone therapies to create a condition of artificial castration. 

[PSmith08]

I'd love to know how that's possible. 

I am extremely skeptical of any research that shows that child molesters or pedophiles can be made to change their sexual tastes, absent the use of hormone therapies to create a condition of artificial castration. 

"Modified" does not necessarily mean "corrected." As best as I can tell, having read and seen stuff on this, the attempt isn't to change the taste but to teach the offender how to avoid situations where the taste becomes a problem (filters on computers, staying away from unsupervised situations with kids, &c.). Pedophilia is probably something you don't get over, from the interviews I've seen, but - like any compulsion - you can mitigate and control it.

[knight66]

Yes, I cannot say whether the evidence really holds water. It relates to a number of schemes that have been going for a maximum of about three years, so I would regard it as early days. One scheme makes the individual accountable for regular meetings with a panel of people drawn from their own community and provides support through specific befriending to modify behaviour; as against eradicate the desire.

The evidence so far is that the re-offending is about 45%, (I think), and this is a much better result than any other treatment or attempt to eliminate re-offending in this sector.

One factor has been to try not to isolate the individual, but to ensure the individual has contacts that are healthy. Isolation can be a substantial factor in re-offending.

Mike

[Bunny]

"Modified" does not necessarily mean "corrected." As best as I can tell, having read and seen stuff on this, the attempt isn't to change the taste but to teach the offender how to avoid situations where the taste becomes a problem (filters on computers, staying away from unsupervised situations with kids, &c.). Pedophilia is probably something you don't get over, from the interviews I've seen, but - like any compulsion - you can mitigate and control it.

If the success of the treatment depends on staying away from kids, then how could the judge have ruled that he's fit to resume teaching activities in the future.

Yes, I cannot say whether the evidence really holds water. It relates to a number of schemes that have been going for a maximum of about three years, so I would regard it as early days. One scheme makes the individual accountable for regular meetings with a panel of people drawn from their own community and provides support through specific befriending to modify behaviour; as against eradicate the desire.

The evidence so far is that the re-offending is about 45%, (I think), and this is a much better result than any other treatment or attempt to eliminate re-offending in this sector.

One factor has been to try not to isolate the individual, but to ensure the individual has contacts that are healthy. Isolation can be a substantial factor in re-offending.

Mike

I'd love to know the margin of error over a larger sample.  Anyway, anything that far from 100% is too much of a chance for me.  Try explaining to a mother why he was allowed to teach her child when they knew there was an almost 50/50 chance the teacher might relapse and molest her son or one of his classmates.

[PSmith08]

If the success of the treatment depends on staying away from kids, then how could the judge have ruled that he's fit to resume teaching activities in the future.

Let's not "modify" what I said: unsupervised contact with kids is different than all contact with kids. If he's teaching in a supervised environment and has no unsupervised contact with the students, then there's no problem on that front. He'd probably have to be watched by family and friends closely outside of that context. It's when you don't keep an eye on them that problems creep up.

I'd love to know the margin of error over a larger sample.  Anyway, anything that far from 100% is too much of a chance for me.  Try explaining to a mother why he was allowed to teach her child when they knew there was an almost 50/50 chance the teacher might relapse and molest her son or one of his classmates.

Listen, I'm not a big "second chance" guy in these situations; however, if you provide support, medication, if needed, and supervision at all times - then you can make them functional in society again. Also, the stigma of the crime ensures that parents, family, and associates will keep a close watch on him and ensure that there are no repeats. The point of this isn't to make them a withdrawn humanoid, one with dangerous compulsions and nowhere to take them, but to integrate them safely in society. Given most convicts' grim view of such criminals, prison should be rough enough to ensure an aversion to committing the crime again.

[knight66]

The programmes I read about did not permit ANY contact with children for any reason and the person had to account for each day. It was not about trying them out into dangerous settings, it meant them staying away altogether.

Mike

[PSmith08]

The programmes I read about did not permit ANY contact with children for any reason and the person had to account for each day. It was not about trying them out into dangerous settings, it meant them staying away altogether.

Mike

What little I know of these plans, and what little I've seen on various news specials and interviews, makes me wonder if the isolation from children entirely - not even under strict supervision - is part of the still-high recidivism rate.

[knight66]

I am no proponent of all of this, I am just reporting what I read or heard. The most recent estimate of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of men who assault children in the UK inferred that even if we could catch them, there is not space to jail them all. So, I assume the importance of these concepts of treatment or monitoring become of more than marginal interest.

Mike