Music from non-orchestral cultures

[Florestan]

No-- but rather that "Western Culture" has developed through interaction with other cultures, and to assume any "purity" of it is to oversimplify the historical record.  Yes it has produced many ideas-- but many of them have been triggered through interactions with other cultures.

Agreed. It is interesting to note, though, that the very idea of "interaction" and "exchange" with other cultures is a specifically "Western" one. The amount of intellectual curiosity and understanding effort that the Europeans displayed in regard with other civilizations is unparalleled. India and China, for instance, the object of a long and sustained intellectual love affair for Europeans, developed in a splendid isolation, with only a periferic interest, if at all, in other cultures.

[jowcol]

And when you refer to the philosophical patrimony of Europe - Certainly European philosophies have developed in conversation with eastern philosophies.... or would you rather eliminate the likes of Schopenhauer, Nietszche and Bergson from the patrimony list?

I'd add Merton to the list as well.

[jowcol]

Agreed. It is interesting to note, though, that the very idea of "interaction" and "exchange" with other cultures is a specifically "Western" one. The amount of intellectual curiosity and understanding effort that the Europeans displayed in regard with other civilizations is unparalleled. India and China, for instance, the object of a long and sustained intellectual love affair for Europeans, developed in a splendid isolation, with only a periferic interest, if at all, in other cultures.

Japan would even be a stronger example, but yes, that is a very interesting point, and one that I'll need to ponder on further.  It's very ironic that the "love affair for the east" is a western affectation.  Unfortunately, the reverse pattern tends to have the east recognizing  our material accomplishments, and not philosophical ones-- but that IS a big generalization that likely has many holes in it.

[Chaszz]

Japan would even be a stronger example, but yes, that is a very interesting point, and one that I'll need to ponder on further.  It's very ironic that the "love affair for the east" is a western affectation.  Unfortunately, the reverse pattern tends to have the east recognizing  our material accomplishments, and not philosophical ones-- but that IS a big generalization that likely has many holes in it.

There are two big exceptions to this assertion. First, Alexander's invasions brought Hellenistic Greek sculpture to India and a good deal of Indian sculpture was subsequently influenced by this style. Second, in recent times many Asian artists and musicians have been strongly influenced by Western art and music. There are performers like Lang Lang and others, conductors like Seiji Ozawa. There are well-known Asian composers who try to blend their traditions with Western classical music. Much American Abstract painting was originally influenced by the mystical and abstract elements of Asian art and many Asian artists have returned the interest, adapting their native traditions to modernist Western ideas.

[Josquin des Prez]

There are two big exceptions to this assertion. First, Alexander's invasions brought Hellenistic Greek sculpture to India and a good deal of Indian sculpture was subsequently influenced by this style. Second, in recent times many Asian artists and musicians have been strongly influenced by Western art and music. There are performers like Lang Lang and others, conductors like Seiji Ozawa. There are well-known Asian composers who try to blend their traditions with Western classical music. Much American Abstract painting was originally influenced by the mystical and abstract elements of Asian art and many Asian artists have returned the interest, adapting their native traditions to modernist Western ideas.

And yet, the Japanese are fiercely ethnocentric. Perhaps it is your own assumption that ethnocentrism automatically translates into cultural isolationism that is the root of the problem. Europe was after all relatively ethnocentric as well until very recently. On the other end, all efforts to eliminate ethnocentric feelings among European people have so far led to the complete decline of European culture as its own unique entity.

[max]

On the other end, all efforts to eliminate ethnocentric feelings among European people have so far led to the complete decline of European culture as its own unique entity.

I would say "archived" would be more true to form than "decline". It's a record for the ages as long as "ages" are still a part of our horizon. Even if European or any culture without infiltration and subject only to its own influences it would nevertheless metamorphose into styles and preferences completely foreign to preceding ages.

Decline is extremely difficult to measure. Cultures are dynamic, the Western for the last 500 years much more so than the Eastern which by comparison is only beginning to extend its tentacles. Though unlikely, it is fascinating to speculate on what a single global culture would be like and how it too would change itself by those who are never satisfied with the status quo on any continent.

[Chaszz]

...Cultures are dynamic, the Western for the last 500 years much more so than the Eastern which by comparison is only beginning to extend its tentacles...

If you go back to the beginning and middle of your 500 years, that is to before the 20th century, you would be hard pressed to say that Chinese and Japanese painting were any less dynamic and changing than Western painting. In some respects, more so. Chinese landscape painting, as I mentioned previously, has a 1500-year history of evolution. There were contrasting schools succeeding one another with competing philosophies. Surprising developments in Japanese printmaking in the 18th and 19th centuries were a main influence on Western early modern art, European and American both. I think the recurring idea of Asian cultural immobility in this thread is based more on unfamiliarity with the actual Asian arts than knowledge of them, and is a mistaken stereotype. Or perhaps it is based on the undoubted difference in developments in science and technology leaking over, in commenters' minds, into the arts. In any case, I think one would be wise to avoid large generalizations when, perhaps, not knowing actual developments in the arts more fully.

[jowcol]

In any case, I think one would be wise to avoid large generalizations when, perhaps, not knowing actual developments in the arts more fully.

Word!  I couldn't have said it better-- (and have repeatly  failed to do so) in the course of this thread.

Even generalizations about Western Culture (and music) are problematic when we start trying to describe the musical traditions of the central Europeans, the Italians, the Slavs, the Scandinavians , etc, as cut from the same cloth....

[Florestan]

the recurring idea of Asian cultural immobility in this thread

IMO it's more a matter of isolation rather than immobility. Chinese landscape painting or Japanese printmaking were certainly dynamic, but isolated. Foreign influences were almost nil, because ideologically not sought for. This is in stark contrast with the intellectual curiosity the Europeans displayed towards other cultures and which prompted them to go to all places of the world, even the most obscure and dangerous. It's Europeans that set foot on Japanese shores, not the other way around. It's Marco Polo that went to China, not the other way around. And it's Japanese printing that influenced European art, not the other way around. Just a few examples out of many.

Even generalizations about Western Culture (and music) are problematic when we start trying to describe the musical traditions of the central Europeans, the Italians, the Slavs, the Scandinavians , etc, as cut from the same cloth....

I think Western Culture is exactly a generalization which describes Europe as a whole. I never considered Bartok or Enescu, Verdi or Malipiero, Tchaikovsky or Janacek and Grieg or Atterberg anything else than Western.

[starrynight]

I think Western Culture is exactly a generalization which describes Europe as a whole. I never considered Bartok or Enescu, Verdi or Malipiero, Tchaikovsky or Janacek and Grieg or Atterberg anything else than Western.

The area of 'Western' influence was obviously large even if some nationalists want to try and claim some special isolation for some places. 

As for Indian music (for example) apparently their modern classical music period started from around 1700, that would suggest there hasn't been much ongoing development in recent centuries.  Not that there might not be good music within that tradition but it doesn't seem to have developed recently at the rate Western music has.

[jowcol]

The area of 'Western' influence was obviously large even if some nationalists want to try and claim some special isolation for some places. 

There is some validity to that observation, but Webern and Ravel do not sound closely related to me, even though they wrote in the same culture and time period.  Some may perceive a "Russian" sound as being more melancholy. 

As for Indian music (for example) apparently their modern classical music period started from around 1700, that would suggest there hasn't been much ongoing development in recent centuries.  Not that there might not be good music within that tradition but it doesn't seem to have developed recently at the rate Western music has.

Interesting observation-- this may have something to do with the fact it is more of an improvised from, and not written, and their is no real distinction between composer and performer.   But (to contradict myself)  western jazz is an improvised form, and has had many major changes over it's relatively brief life span.

[Ugh]

Webern and Ravel do not sound closely related to me, even though they wrote in the same culture and time period.  Some may perceive a "Russian" sound as being more melancholy. 

This is excactly the problem with large cultural generalizations - upon inspection one is likely to find great variation and even divergence - even within a single family - which is grossed over. You are certainly right about pointing out major gaps between expressionism and impressionism, and these are obviously related to national identities as well. The next step would be to realize that Webern and Schoenberg do sound related but that the differences between them are significant as well. Labeling can only take us so far.

As a note on the issue of development in music, I'd like to point out the interesting fact that although there certainly have been dramatic developments in classical music the last century- not least inspired by musical systems outside Europe - there are a lot of people who'd like to discard those changes. This includes a great deal of people on this forum who have repeatedly claimed that these developments are "noise". The point of course is that the distinction between a dynamic west and static "rest" does not reflect the static forces in the west well.

Great posts by the way

[Chaszz]

IMO it's more a matter of isolation rather than immobility. Chinese landscape painting or Japanese printmaking were certainly dynamic, but isolated. Foreign influences were almost nil, because ideologically not sought for. This is in stark contrast with the intellectual curiosity the Europeans displayed towards other cultures and which prompted them to go to all places of the world, even the most obscure and dangerous. It's Europeans that set foot on Japanese shores, not the other way around. It's Marco Polo that went to China, not the other way around. And it's Japanese printing that influenced European art, not the other way around. Just a few examples out of many.

A very good point in answer to mine. However, just to be accurate, I think the primary motivation was profits from trade, with Western countries even opening up Asian markets by force when necessary. We have the dismal examples of the British forcing China to let opium be sold to its youth, destroying several generations; and Commodore Perry anchoring gunships at Tokyo to force the opening of Japan to US trade. Artistic interests came along as a hitchhiker.   

[Chaszz]

As a note on the issue of development in music, I'd like to point out the interesting fact that although there certainly have been dramatic developments in classical music the last century- not least inspired by musical systems outside Europe - there are a lot of people who'd like to discard those changes. This includes a great deal of people on this forum who have repeatedly claimed that these developments are "noise". The point of course is that the distinction between a dynamic west and static "rest" does not reflect the static forces in the west well.

Great posts by the way

True some have little use for modern music. But I was struck, when reading one long extended thread on thorny contemporary music, how not one traditionalist stuck his two cents in and criticized any of the composers or posters. This forum is unlike others in that people seem to have somewhat better toleration and there seems to be less flaming. I note that one shark-like creature who drove me away for awhile is no longer showing his teeth here and has perhaps been banned (?)

[Sergeant Rock]

This forum is unlike others in that people seem to have somewhat better toleration and there seems to be less flaming. I note that one shark-like creature who drove me away for awhile is no longer showing his teeth here and has perhaps been banned (?)

Yes, the shark was banned...forever 

Sarge

[Ugh]

True some have little use for modern music. But I was struck, when reading one long extended thread on thorny contemporary music, how not one traditionalist stuck his two cents in and criticized any of the composers or posters. This forum is unlike others in that people seem to have somewhat better toleration and there seems to be less flaming. I note that one shark-like creature who drove me away for awhile is no longer showing his teeth here and has perhaps been banned (?)

The anit-modernist discussion has been repeated infinitely on this forum across the last 5 years or so, hopefully people have finally become bored with it I noticed the thread you mention as well and was astonished 

[Josquin des Prez]

Yes, the shark was banned...forever 

Sarge

He was jumped by the mods (ok, bad joke, but i'm bored).

[Josquin des Prez]

The anit-modernist discussion has been repeated infinitely on this forum across the last 5 years or so, hopefully people have finally become bored with it I noticed the thread you mention as well and was astonished 

Modern music isn't European music. That is the main objection to it, whether people actually realize it or not. Modern culture and art is a byproduct of the corrosive negative forces (culture distortions) that have cannibalized both the spirit and the body of western civilization. This is why no matter how clever or creative modern artists may be, they will never be fully accepted since their art work as a negative force in relation to the organism as opposed to a positive one. As you see, the discussion is far from being over.

[jowcol]

major changes? nah... and remember the art of improvisation goes right back to the earliest music & is ephemeral and cannot be reproduced.

I was thinking of changes in styles  such as Dixieland-Swing-Bop-Cool-what have you. 

[jowcol]

As you see, the discussion is far from being over.

Glad to hear that!  I knew that something's been missing from my life lately.