James Levine

[Brian]

Several Norwegian female classcal artists have recently come forward with deeply disturbing stories of sexual harassment in the classical music industry. Let me say that my dislike of a dead, major conductor has for years been grounded in what I consider a very trusthworthy story given in an interview 10 years ago by an internationally known Norwegian singer.

Is there any particular reason to conceal the name of the singer and conductor if the accusation is made on the record (as in this case)? I certainly understand in the case of unattributed rumors or "friend of a friend" stories - for instance, when a music-school classmate of mine said that when she was in a boarding school for 13-18 year olds, a visiting very famous musician (then 35-40) was unnaturally interested in the young girls. Or for further instance, Jens' allusion to various other elderly and semi-retired conductors being next to fall after Levine. But I don't think it's irresponsible to name a publicly accused figure in music, any more than it is to name, say, the American president.

No disrespect meant, erato, I am not criticizing you, I am sure it is a controversial subject.

(Incidentally I had no idea of the Levine rumors and am greatly disappointed that he is one of the monsters. Was just listening to one of his recordings Friday. It's amazing how these rumors can be both ubiquitous and inaudible at the same time - last happened with Kevin Spacey, which I thought everyone knew about until all my friends told me how shocked they were.)

As for Jansons, that's unfortunately a common sentiment among those trained in that part of the world. The much younger Vasily Petrenko has said all the same things.

[Jo498]

If one wonders why people speak out now I am pretty sure that the current "climate" is relevant.
Or more precisely, in the 1970s the general mood, not only but especially in cultural/artistic/progressive circles seems to have been very liberal (or rather libertine). Borders are hardly ever clear (except with prepubescent children and even there the 70s were shockingly "open") and I dare the guess that nobody would have been all that scandalized by a 16 yo reporting homosexual interactions with a famous artist, mostly regardless of the legal status. So in addition to personal trauma, the general atmosphere made it probably futile to come forward with such accusations.

[Florestan]

As for Jansons, that's unfortunately a common sentiment among those trained in that part of the world. The much younger Vasily Petrenko has said all the same things.

What did they say?

[vandermolen]

What did they say?

I was aware of rumours regarding Levine - not Jansons.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

What did they say?

Petrenko V. (not K., whose assistant is a woman of the female persuasion) said some really dumb things like "Musicians are distracted by 'cute girl on a podium'" and that "orchestras 'react better when they have a man in front of them'", followed by vaguely misogynist stuff like: "Musicians have often less sexual energy and can focus more on the music," adding that "when women have families, it becomes difficult to be as dedicated as is demanded in the business".

It's the mixture of being just a little bit right in a tiny aspect being embedded in vast ignorance that made these statements fairly obnoxious.

Mariss Jansons meanwhile expressed, when pressed, the opinion that "women conductors were not his cup of tea". An opinion shared by many people who are not, on account of that, misogynists. Though you'd never know, judging by the heated response to Jansons fairly innocuous comment. On Twitter, he's mentioned in the same sentence with Levine as someone who ought to be fired from his job. Insanity, if you ask me, and the next Forbes essay.

[Karl Henning]

Petrenko V. (not K., whose assistant is a woman of the female persuasion) said some really dumb things like "Musicians are distracted by 'cute girl on a podium'" and that "orchestras 'react better when they have a man in front of them'", followed by vaguely misogynist stuff like: "Musicians have often less sexual energy and can focus more on the music," adding that "when women have families, it becomes difficult to be as dedicated as is demanded in the business".

It's the mixture of being just a little bit right in a tiny aspect being embedded in vast ignorance that made these statements fairly obnoxious.

Also, things are just socially backward enough in Russia, that this sexism has not been addressed to anything like the degree it has in the West.

Of course, as we see in America (and we're making her great again!) there is a significant majority who think that addressing the sexism is The Problem.  Let Men Be Boors, Damn It!

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Also, things are just socially backward enough in Russia, that this sexism has not been addressed to anything like the degree it has in the West.

Of course, as we see in America (and we're making her great again!) there is a significant majority who think that addressing the sexism is The Problem.  Let Men Be Boors, Damn It!

Russian and - in Jansons case - old. Heck, even I find women on the podium still somewhat novel. And I grew up with Marin becoming MD in B'more and saw her regularly.

There's a significant difference between not pouring water on the mills of sexism and having an opinion that isn't fully politically correct. The latter is incredibly counter-productive, too. We can't get at the root of it, without addressing and, yes, even admitting to some politically incorrect facts, opinions, beliefs first. The think-police isn't helping the cause as much as they think they are.

[Florestan]

Petrenko V. (not K., whose assistant is a woman of the female persuasion) said some really dumb things like "Musicians are distracted by 'cute girl on a podium'" and that "orchestras 'react better when they have a man in front of them'", followed by vaguely misogynist stuff like: "Musicians have often less sexual energy and can focus more on the music," adding that "when women have families, it becomes difficult to be as dedicated as is demanded in the business".

It's the mixture of being just a little bit right in a tiny aspect being embedded in vast ignorance that made these statements fairly obnoxious.

Mariss Jansons meanwhile expressed, when pressed, the opinion that "women conductors were not his cup of tea". An opinion shared by many people who are not, on account of that, misogynists. Though you'd never know, judging by the heated response to Jansons fairly innocuous comment. On Twitter, he's mentioned in the same sentence with Levine as someone who ought to be fired from his job. Insanity, if you ask me, and the next Forbes essay.

Thanks. There's a clear difference between Petrenko, who spoke on behalf of others (who might or might not agree) and Jansons, who expressed a personal position. Neither one nor the other comments, though, qualify even remotely as a reasonable enough cause for firing their authors.

Insanity, if you ask me, and the next Forbes essay.

Agreed.

[Parsifal]

Thanks. There's a clear difference between Petrenko, who spoke on behalf of others (who might or might not agree) and Jansons, who expressed a personal position. Neither one nor the other comments, though, qualify even remotely as a reasonable enough cause for firing their authors.

He is a performer who is paid a princes ransom to sell records and fill seats. If the expressed 'personal position' alienates the audience, it is cause for firing.

When I heard of Petrenko's cave-man mentality all interest in his recordings or performances vanished. The misdeeds of those who are dead and buried will not prevent me from listening to recordings but if my economic vote can help put an asshole out of a job I will do it.

[Todd]

If the expressed 'personal position' alienates the audience, it is cause for firing.

It has for you, but has it for a material portion of the potential audience?

[Florestan]

He is a performer who is paid a princes ransom to sell records and fill seats. If the expressed 'personal position' alienates the audience, it is cause for firing.

While I agree with that, where is the evidence that Petrenko's or Jansons' remarks have significantly alienated their audience and resulted in, for instance, massive drops in records (or ticket) sales and subscription cancelling?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

He is a performer who is paid a princes ransom to sell records and fill seats. If the expressed 'personal position' alienates the audience, it is cause for firing.

When I heard of Petrenko's cave-man mentality all interest in his recordings or performances vanished. The misdeeds of those who are dead and buried will not prevent me from listening to recordings but if my economic vote can help put an asshole out of a job I will do it.

That's correct and fair enough. But in that case I'd like that much honesty in the process. I.e. an employer saying: We disagree with what he said -- but we will not fire an employee for being disagreeable per se. However, we will sever our ties with said performer... because we fear that we might suffer economically if we didn't.

I'd have some respect for that.

It's the icky mixing of pseudo-morality and economics that I'm allergic to.

While I agree with that, where is the evidence that Petrenko's or Jansons' remarks have significantly alienated their audience and resulted in, for instance, massive drops in records (or ticket) sales and subscription cancelling?

No, none that I've heard of. But then neither were fired and no one is as of yet seriously thinking of firing Jansons. The twitter-insanity hasn't quite gripped the Bavarian Broadcasting Cooperation. Yet.

[Florestan]

When I heard of Petrenko's cave-man mentality all interest in his recordings or performances vanished.

There is this other guy who claims that, after being healthy, the most important and pleasant thing in life is earning money; that music should have something for everyone; and that writing music which does not have an immediate audience is a waste of time and energy. Would you lose interest in his recordings if I told you who he is?

[Brian]

There is this other guy who claims that, after being healthy, the most important and pleasant thing in life is earning money; that music should have something for everyone; and that writing music which does not have an immediate audience is a waste of time and energy. Would you lose interest in his recordings if I told you who he is?

I don't understand your point here. One person said something sexist. Another person expressed feelings about life and art which aren't at all insulting or degrading or discriminatory. Why are you comparing them?

[Mirror Image]

Of course, Levine is a reptile of the slithy kind, but this does not affect my feelings about his musicianship nor will it affect anyone else's. In the music world (or really any of the performing arts for that matter), a person's character is overlooked, especially if their art has touched a great number of people. Music lives on no matter what the circumstances surrounding Levine will be.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I don't understand your point here. One person said something sexist. Another person expressed feelings about life and art which aren't at all insulting or degrading or discriminatory. Why are you comparing them?

I assume the point is an inquiry into the question of how much extra-musical-matters with which we don't concur (for different reasons, as is obvious from the examples) play into our appreciation of an artist.

What if we learned that Pierre Fournier had been a sexist. That Heifetz didn't care about recycling. That Rubinstein secretly denied global warning. That Vivaldi did his best fiddling in A minor... oh, the possibilities. 

Man, I thought him being a Nazi collaborator was bad enough.

[Todd]

What if we learned that Pierre Fournier had been a sexist.

Man, I thought him being a Nazi collaborator was bad enough.

[vandermolen]

Thanks. There's a clear difference between Petrenko, who spoke on behalf of others (who might or might not agree) and Jansons, who expressed a personal position. Neither one nor the other comments, though, qualify even remotely as a reasonable enough cause for firing their authors.

Agreed.

Totally agree with Andrei here.

And I had read the Jansons comments and did not think that was what people meant.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

If one wonders why people speak out now I am pretty sure that the current "climate" is relevant.
Or more precisely, in the 1970s the general mood, not only but especially in cultural/artistic/progressive circles seems to have been very liberal (or rather libertine).

This is true. Look at the behavior of virtually any rock star of that period. Yet nowadays they're revered "elder statesmen" (if they haven't already killed themselves through their own misbehavior).

When I heard of Petrenko's cave-man mentality

Classical music is truly multicultural and this can cause problems, it appears. What you call his "cave-man mentality" is the default mode of the whole world, outside the small minority living in Western Europe and certain of its colonial offshoots.

[Karl Henning]

Of course, Levine is a reptile of the slithy kind, but this does not affect my feelings about his musicianship nor will it affect anyone else's.

Agreed (and I think the point has been raised ere now).

I admit that I had to overcome The Ick Factor in order to approach Woody Allen's work.  But I did.

And the strong possibility of Levine's behavior is not new to me, and has not interfered with (e.g.) my fetching in some of his Mahler recordings this year.