Six greatest American orchestral works

[Franco]

Sorry but Nadia Boulanger was one of the best musical composition teachers in history ... look into the list of students and the results.

Oh I kno so ...

You go, girl.  [Brain fart alert]: You can have Glass, Adams and Reich and I'll take Cage and Feldman any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Franco]

Don't get condescending & alerting me of your upcoming Brain fart ...I don't need it, everything you say is pretty off. Boulanger was one of thee greatest composition teachers of the 20th C. (can't be argued really), and I don't want any of those composers really, I was just pointing out a major flaw in your logic, those 2 are miminal (more so) than the ones you kept off of your (silly)  list...

Oh, I understand that we don't agree on much, and that you confuse my departure from your dogma with "brain farts" -  it's one of your often unintentionally humorous behaviors. 

I'm not interested in Boulanger's reputation as a teacher, yep, she taught many good composers, but I wasn't addressing that part of your post, it was your response to mine I was responding to - and the so-called minimalism of Feldman or Cage is not the same kind of minimalism of Glass and Reich.  Not that you'd notice. 

I really don't care at all what you think about anything and only engage you to see more of the ridiculous remarks you are so capable of issuing.

[jowcol]

At what point did a really constructive dialogue about American orchestral works degenerate into a p***ing match?

Cancel that--  I don't want to know.   

A couple points:

• It's been clear over the last 2-300 years that the greatest musical minds have frequently disagreed about the relative merits of each others works.  it is a very naive assumption that on this forum we can do better.


• Comparisons are pretty pointless when criteria are not provided.  Who was better at the fast break, Hilary Hahn or Michael Jordan?  If we don't provide a context to a comparison, we degenerate to that level. It may be fun to vent a spleen, but how much does it advance our understanding


• Belittling someone's tastes because they disagree with oneself  screams of insecurity-- IMO

For the record, I absolutely love Reich-- some of the time.  It's very dependent on my mood.  I don't think he's a broad composer, but there are times when I want to listen to something "unfinished" where I can project my own melodic lines on top of it, and he is fantastic for that.  He's not one to stun me with something totally unexpected. 

On the other hand, I'm not threatened by anyone who feels Reich is a complete waste of time. If they find some other artist that meets their needs, more power to them.  There is too much music and too little time for me to worry about that.

[vandermolen]

I agree with John's (Jowcol) point above.

I started this thread for three reasons:

1: I'm an Americophile (is that a word?) when it comes to my taste in classical music and I have a genuine desire to learn which composers other members of the forum value. From six (or more) selections I feel that I have a sense of the trajectory of others tastes- I enjoy this.
2: Have I misseed any great American composers? (never heard of Fuchs, don't know Rochberg's Second Symphony and need to investigate Feldman and Reich). Also I'm interested in the choice of Diamond's Second Symphony whereas I prefer No 3 and note that noone else mentioned Antheil, whose Fourth (and Third) Symphony I value highly.
3: I like lists!

But, I would never regard my own choices views as better or worse than anyone else's views and, without wanting to sound 'holier than thou' I think that we should respect each other's views and treat people thoughtfully - so there(pity there is no smiley face with halo around it as before!)

PS This should now kill the thread stone dead!

[knight66]

Being born & raised there ... simply that.

I have been round areas of Los Angeles where the 'Chinese' and 'Mexican' cantons contained both first and second generation people who had either no English or only a minimal grasp of it.



These people are certainly Americans, were they the kind you had in mind?

Or perhaps these?



Mike

[listener]

Popularity and greatness are not always related (consider the results of some elections), but for your consideration these lists may be a reminder of some work or works overlooked in this topic.

The League of American Orchestras has published two lists of its most performed national composers in 2008-09, alive and dead. The rankings, which understandably exclude small-scale, choral non-professional and opera performances, restore John Adams to the top of the charts from which he slipped rather miserably in Last Composer Standing.

Jennifer Higdon, newly decorated with the Pulitzer, has a stunningly good result.

Here are the two lists. Make of them what you will.

Living Composers
1 Adams, John 52 (performances)
2 Higdon, Jennifer 49
3 Daugherty, Michael 34
4 Corigliano, John 32
5 Williams, John 31
6 Schwantner, Joseph 23
7 Theofanidis, Christopher 22
8 Kernis, Aaron Jay 20
9 Rouse, Christopher 19
9 Tower, Joan 19
11 Meyer, Edgar 16
12 Stucky, Steven 14
13 Frank, Gabriela Lena 12
13 Torke, Michael 12
15 Argento, Dominick 10
15 Glass, Philip 10
17 Carter, Elliott 7
18 Jones, Samuel 6
18 Schickele, Peter 6
18 Thomas, Augusta Read 6
18 Walker, George Theophilus 6
18 Ward, Robert 6
18 Wuorinen, Charles 6

Alive or dead
1 Copland, Aaron 216
2 Bernstein, Leonard 183
3 Barber, Samuel 173
4 Gershwin, George 129
5 Ives, Charles 58
6 Adams, John 52
7 Higdon, Jennifer 49
8 Anderson, Leroy 42
9 Daugherty,Michael 34
10 Corigliano, John 32
11 Williams, John 31
12 Schwantner, Joseph 23
13 Herrmann, Bernard 22
13 Theofanidis, Christopher 22
15 Kernis, Aaron Jay 20
16 Rouse, Christopher 19
16 Tower, Joan 19
18 Ellington, Edward Kennedy ("Duke") 17
19 Meyer, Edgar 16
20 Cage, John 14
20 Stucky, Steven 14

credit: http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2010/04/most_played_american_composers.html

[Scarpia]

The question of what constitutes an American orchestral work is interesting.  I think that national associations with music are often superficial, involving incorporation of elements of folk music, setting of nationalistic texts, etc. 

This is not what interests me.  In the past different countries have had more general national traits.  Speaking vaguely, Germany is known for dark, rich orchestral sonorities, complex harmony and thematic development (the epitome being, perhaps Brahms).  The French for wit and sparkling sonorities (Ravel), the British for opulent orchestration and a ceremonial air (Elgar), Russians for more outlandish expressionism (Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov). 

What is the American sound?  I refuse to consider that it is Gershwin, and his stilted transformation of the Jazz idiom.  I suspect that American composers only came to their own after music became cosmopolitan, at a time when national styles were becoming less and less distinct.

[Franco]

I suspect that American composers only came to their own after music became cosmopolitan, at a time when national styles were becoming less and less distinct.

I agree, and attempted to make this kind of point, but got distracted.

[Josquin des Prez]

These people are certainly Americans

As American as the rest of the fauna.

[Josquin des Prez]

I suspect that American composers only came to their own

I'm sorry, i must have missed the boat or something. When did that happen exactly?

[some guy]

I must have missed the boat or something.

A true word!!

(Sorry. It was irresistible.)

[Guido]

Not greatest, but favourite, limiting myself to one per composer:

Ives Symphony no.4
Carter Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei
Barber Symphony no.1
Shapero Symphony for Classical Orchestra
Adams Harmonielehre
Fine Serious Song

For each of these guys I could easily list five works that I love as much as these.

[schweitzeralan]

Time for another pointless list I think. For 'greatest' I realise that this may well mean 'favourite'.  Here are my initial thoughts:

Ives: Three Places in New England

Copland: Symphony No 3

Diamond: Symphony No 3

Bernstein: Jeremiah Symphony

Barber: Essay for Orchestra No 2

William Schuman: Symphony 6

What about Creston's 2nd.?

Mennin's 6th?
Carter's Variations for Orchestra?

Vincent's Symphony After Descartres?

Harris' 3rd.?

An older but quite viable thread.

[Saul]

Americana in Parisian - Gershwin

Raphsodia In Bluetta - Gershwin

CandisK - Sir Lord Bernstien

Something slow In D minor - Barberovsky

Maple leaf rodeo - Forgot the composer's name, perhaps Joplinsky...

Coplandia - Appleuchian Springsters

[Mirror Image]

Six great American compositions (in no particular order):

1. Copland: Appalachian Spring
2. Barber: Violin Concerto
3. Piston: Symphony No. 2
4. Ives: Symphony No. 2
5. Hovhaness: Symphony No. 2 "Mysterious Mountain"
6. Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue

[The new erato]

Six great American compositions (in no particular order):

1. Copland: Appalachian Spring
2. Barber: Violin Concerto
3. Piston: Symphony No. 2
4. Ives: Symphony No. 2
5. Hovhaness: Symphony No. 2 "Mysterious Mountain"
6. Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue

You got that nearly right! 

Now substitute the Schuman Concerto for the Barber, and Kern's Showboat for the Hovhaness, and you've finally landed!

[wppwah]

If you want to go back even earlier, how about these lesser-known compositions...

Amy Beach: Gaelic Symphony
Ferde Grofe: Grand Canyon Suite
William Grant Still: Symphony #1 "Afro-American" (and his other four symphonies as well)

[False_Dmitry]

Six great American compositions (in no particular order):

1. Copland: Appalachian Spring
2. Barber: Violin Concerto
3. Piston: Symphony No. 2
4. Ives: Symphony No. 2
5. Hovhaness: Symphony No. 2 "Mysterious Mountain"
6. Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue

Nice start   Only the stage works are missing! Now we just need to squeeze PORGY & BESS,  Menotti's THE MEDIUM,  Barber's ANTHONY & CLEOPATRA, Glass's AKHNATEN, Ward's THE CRUCIBLE, Sousa's EL CAPITAN (what, the March King wrote operettas too? Well, ya don't say?) Weill's ONE TOUCH OF VENUS, and Adams's DR ATOMIC into the list somehow!     Oh, and find some room for Harry Partch, too.  Is that still six?

[schweitzeralan]

What about Creston's 2nd.?

Mennin's 6th?
Carter's Variations for Orchestra?

Vincent's Symphony After Descartres?

Harris' 3rd.?

An older but quite viable thread.

Forgot to add a sixth orchestral work.  Anyone familiar with Easley Blackwood?  I forgot I had a CD; must have acquired it some time ago.  I listened to this modernistic work decades ago when I was in college. The Symphony is a good, strong highly neoclassical style with strong structural leveled rhythmic pulse as well as laced with subtle harmonic sensitivity.  The end of  the 4th movement is dramatic and is definitely a closure. Reminds me of the death of an entire culture.  Ending is brief but definitive.  Recommended.

[Catison]

You got that nearly right! 

Now substitute the Schuman Concerto for the Barber, and Kern's Showboat for the Hovhaness, and you've finally landed!

Wow, Schuman wrote a Concerto for the Barber? Lots of scissor noises?  And I can't wait to hear Kern's Showboat for the Hovhaness.  A showboat for whales?   

Anyways, a little misconception I see in the previous comments.  Cage and Feldman were not minimalist by most definitions.  The difference is that minimalism involves "Process Music".  Minimalism starts with a set of principles, a little like a 12-tone row for serialism, and develops a process around them.  The key is that the listener can understand the process merely by listening to the music.  (See this famous essay by Steve Reich: http://www.columbia.edu/ccnmtl/draft/ben/feld/mod1/readings/reich.html)

By this definition Alvin Lucier's music was minimalist, and I would agree.  The process music idea eventually wore out.  The music we usually call Minimalist now has an aesthetic relationship to process music, but is much more dynamic.  This music is more rightly called Post-Minimalist.  Adams is the perfect example.  If you listen to his bass lines, you'll find a carefully crafted process, albeit with many exceptions so as to throw off the listener and create energy. 

On the other hand, Cage and Feldman never perceived their work as a process, and while there are surface similarities, the aims were entirely different.