What constitutes a masterpiece

[schweitzeralan]

Opinions would in all probability vary on this one.  Great works have been conceived immeasurably over the centuries.  I couldn't list all the magnificent symphonies, operas, piano concertos, etc. created over so many centuries.  generally i tend to be somewhat predisposed toward certain composers and their works during the early 20th century or late 19th century.  The other day I was listening for the millionth time Joseph " Marx's Autumn Symphony."  I kept reminding myself what a quintessential masterpiece this is.  Marx composed other fine works, very enjoyable, but as fine as they are, they are not conceived at the level of the "Herbstsymphonie." Why?  Is it the depth? TThe subtle harmonies?  The consistant, moving, musical structures which have absolutely no weakness nor "bland" areas to fill the void?  The wonderful impressinistic moments which seem to invade one's (my) memory? There are again many works of so many gifted composers and wonderful performances.  But, to me what works do I listen to over and over again? Feeling and probing the musical, the complex harmonies and so on.
  To me I find just a few of the following works I consider to be of consumate achievement,  masterly compositions of which I never tire.

Nemptin/Scriabin: Mysterium
Gliere "Third Symphony"
Debussy, "Le Martyr De Saint Sebastien"
Wagner, Gotterdamerung"
Joseph Suk, Aesrael Symphony"
Rachmaninoff, "Third Piano Concerto'
Eliot Carter," Variations for Orchestra
Sibelius "Tapiola"
Creston Symphony 2
Franck "Symphony in D"
Alexander Krein "'Piano Sonata"

[DavidRoss]

Traditionally, a masterpiece is a work that demonstrates its creator's mastery of the basic elements of his craft and his readiness to be regarded as a master in his own right.  In the sense we often use the term these days, I suspect most would agree that a "masterpiece" is also a mold-breaker, bending or breaking or extending the rules in a manner unique to the artist's distinctive personal vision, such that it not only demonstrates inarguable mastery of the craft, but also offers something new, never before seen, that no one else could have created.

[Superhorn]

   This is such a complex question. But basically, if it's a genuine masterpiece, you feel it in your gut.  It's an instinctual and highly subjective reaction.

[Scarpia]

It never ceases to amaze me that people find it interesting to debate the definition of a word with such a simple meaning.

Main Entry: mas·ter·piece
Pronunciation: \ˈmas-tər-ˌpēs\
Function: noun
Date: 1600

1 : a work done with extraordinary skill; especially : a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement
2 : a piece of work presented to a medieval guild as evidence of qualification for the rank of master

[The Six]

First, check to see if Debussy wrote it. If yes, it's a masterpiece. If not, it can still be one, but the qualifications are pretty steep.

[Guido]

It never ceases to amaze me that people find it interesting to debate the definition of a word with such a simple meaning.

Main Entry: mas·ter·piece
Pronunciation: \ˈmas-tər-ˌpēs\
Function: noun
Date: 1600

1 : a work done with extraordinary skill; especially : a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement
2 : a piece of work presented to a medieval guild as evidence of qualification for the rank of master

Definition no.1 is a sticky subject though. Is Korngold's Die Wunder der Heliane a true operatic masterpiece? It is a supreme achievement, requiring extraordinary skill and sophistication, it's one of the most ambitiously planned out and realised works in any genre... I can admit all of that, but it's still not a masterpiece for me in the way that say Don Giovanni, or Parsifal or La Traviata or even Salome and Capriccio are.

[Scarpia]

Definition no.1 is a sticky subject though. Is Korngold's Die Wunder der Heliane a true operatic masterpiece? It is a supreme achievement, requiring extraordinary skill and sophistication, it's one of the most ambitiously planned out and realised works in any genre... I can admit all of that, but it's still not a masterpiece for me in the way that say Don Giovanni, or Parsifal or La Traviata or even Salome and Capriccio are.

Clearly the judgement of whether the work is a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement has a subjective component.  Do you expect a definition of "masterpiece" that will remove that?

[Josquin des Prez]

Definition no.1 is a sticky subject though. Is Korngold's Die Wunder der Heliane a true operatic masterpiece? It is a supreme achievement, requiring extraordinary skill and sophistication, it's one of the most ambitiously planned out and realised works in any genre... I can admit all of that, but it's still not a masterpiece for me in the way that say Don Giovanni, or Parsifal or La Traviata or even Salome and Capriccio are.

It lacks the spark of individual genius.

[Guido]

Clearly the judgement of whether the work is a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement has a subjective component.  Do you expect a definition of "masterpiece" that will remove that?

Well possibly, but it might just be that this one is not a masterpiece. It's bad having a binary definition like this really - that something either is or is not a masterpiece. It's surely more of a sliding scale.

[Scarpia]

Well possibly, but it might just be that this one is not a masterpiece. It's bad having a binary definition like this really - that something either is or is not a masterpiece. It's surely more of a sliding scale.

Even if the criteria is well defined (which is doubtful), there is always the question of where to set the threshold.  It is a matter of numbers.  How many masterpieces should there be in each Genre?  Only one 20th century German Opera, then Korngold losses out to Rosenkavelier or maybe Salome, maybe the top 10, still no Korngold (in my estimation), top 100, ok, now maybe there is room for Korngold.

[DavidRoss]

So we need an algorithm for masterpiece determination, an expert system that enables one to plug in the relevant numbers and extract the definitive thumbs up or down decision.  Perhaps DavidW is up to taking a stab at it? 

[Guido]

It's weird though - experiencing great music - you feel it with your gut rather than you mind (or even sometimes your heart). Obviously I'm talking about the figurative gut and heart. Obviously.

[schweitzeralan]

It's weird though - experiencing great music - you feel it with your gut rather than you mind (or even sometimes your heart). Obviously I'm talking about the figurative gut and heart. Obviously.

Heartily agree.

[jowcol]

Some more dimensions to this:

Does the opinion of the composer count, vs the public?  Should Tchaikovsky be judged by the Nutcracker because it is now his best seller?  Would Stravinsky liked to be defined by his first three ballets?  Satie by his early piano works? 

Do Masterpieces offer the dawn of a new style, or put an old style to rest?  One of my personal nominations for Stravinsky would be Les Noces-- he spent so much time on it, and it is wholly unique-- and once he "got it out of his system", he needed to move on.


Also, the time factor should be taken into account.  History is filled with accounts of works we now hail as masterpieces which were not so kindly received when they first came out.

[Scarpia]

Some more dimensions to this:

Does the opinion of the composer count, vs the public?  Should Tchaikovsky be judged by the Nutcracker because it is now his best seller?  Would Stravinsky liked to be defined by his first three ballets?  Satie by his early piano works? 

Do Masterpieces offer the dawn of a new style, or put an old style to rest?  One of my personal nominations for Stravinsky would be Les Noces-- he spent so much time on it, and it is wholly unique-- and once he "got it out of his system", he needed to move on.


Also, the time factor should be taken into account.  History is filled with accounts of works we now hail as masterpieces which were not so kindly received when they first came out.

Utterly irrelevant.  Regarding the first point, the judgment of "masterpiece or no masterpiece" is not done on a composer by composer basis, it is done on a work by work basis.   Regarding the second and third point, the commonly accepted definition of the term, "supreme artistic achievement" is the criteria.  How much time was invested, whether the composer wrote other similar pieces, what the popularity of the piece was at the time are irrelevant.  The intellectual or artistic quality of the piece, using the best information available, is the criteria.  Of course, judging the intellectual or artistic merit of a piece will always have a subjective component.

[DavidW]

So we need an algorithm for masterpiece determination, an expert system that enables one to plug in the relevant numbers and extract the definitive thumbs up or down decision.  Perhaps DavidW is up to taking a stab at it? 

I could try to devise a system, but lacking that key insight that allows posters like JdP to so effortlessly make these judgments with a snap of a finger... well it's a daunting task.

[Scarpia]

I could try to devise a system, but lacking that key insight that allows posters like JdP to so effortlessly make these judgments with a snap of a finger... well it's a daunting task.

We just need to put some sort of electrode in his brain to pick up the genius recognition signal.

[Josquin des Prez]

I could try to devise a system, but lacking that key insight that allows posters like JdP to so effortlessly make these judgments with a snap of a finger... well it's a daunting task.

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

So the real question is not "what is genius", but who are the dunces.

But seriously, genius is sincerity. Simple as that. And here's a quote which seems tailored specifically for this thread:

"The principal mark of a genius is not perfection but originality"

And one tailored just for myself:

"The reason we have so few geniuses is that people do not have faith in what they know to be true. " 

And one of my personal favorites:

"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."

- W. A. Mozart.

[greg]

That smiley is pretty irritating.

So we need an algorithm for masterpiece determination, an expert system that enables one to plug in the relevant numbers and extract the definitive thumbs up or down decision.  Perhaps DavidW is up to taking a stab at it? 

I remember when Mikkel was working on some sort of formula that would explain quality in music or something. I don't think it worked out to well...

[Josquin des Prez]

That smiley is pretty irritating.