"Falling out of love with opera"

Started by False_Dmitry, May 28, 2010, 06:17:06 AM

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False_Dmitry

A controversial article by the unfortunately-named Robert Thicknesse in The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/may/27/falling-out-of-love-opera
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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

Josquin des Prez

QuoteOperatic beginnings owed everything to ancient Greece and young men prancing about with enormous flapping leather phalluses. These Dionysiac roots soon gave way to something altogether more puritanical, so that by the 19th century, far from being a celebration of the anarchic power of sex, opera was mostly concerned with killing off women in big dresses who transgressed against the terrifically hypocritical, misogynistic mores of the time.

What?

bhodges

Thanks, an interesting article (even though I don't agree with much of it).  Here's a good reply from Tom Service, which has many of the points I'd make:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2010/may/27/opera-robert-thicknesse-snobbery

Most of the people I know go to opera because they love it--primarily the music, of course, or particular singers, conductors or directors.  At the Met's recent Lulu, there was a huge standing ovation for the cast and conductor Fabio Luisi, and I didn't get the impression that the praise was awarded by an indifferent crowd, for sure.

--Bruce

False_Dmitry

Service's reply is very apposite, I agree.

Thicknesse has also made huge extrapolations about the social position of opera based entirely on his very limited experience of London (and, I presume, Glyndebourne).  But the opera public isn't like that in the rest of the world.  If you wanted to go to the opera next week in here Moscow,  you'd have a choice of  THE SERVANT-MISTRESS/MAVRA (double-bill) for US$12, THE TALES OF HOFFMANN (US$9), LA BOHEME ($13), SILVA (fr $6), THE QUEEN OF SPADES ($17)....  well, you get the picture.

In Romania and Bulgaria, going to a provincial opera theatre usually costs around $6.  I went to THE MAGIC FLUTE in Bratislava for $8.

Thicknesse really needs to get out more.   What's most annoying is that his trips to the ROH or Glyndebourne have almost certainly been on Guest Tickets anyhow!
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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

bhodges

Yes, in my experience with opera (mostly at the Met) I have noticed mostly people who are very eager to be there, and not for "status" reasons, either.  I'm sure there are people who show up clueless ("Honey, what are we seeing tonight?") but the reaction to most things I've attended has been very, very involved and passionate. 

My take on Thicknesse's piece was that he seems a bit burnt out on the genre, perhaps, and that it's time for him to explore some string quartet repertoire, or some more lieder or a cappella choral music, or something, anything.  "All opera and no solo piano music makes anyone a dull boy."  :D  Just my two cents, of course, speaking as a fairly omnivorous listener.

--Bruce


Franco

I don't think opera needs defending, especially form the sort of person as Thicknesse.

As in almost all things if something is not, or no longer, your cup of tea, just look elsewhere for something to enjoy (and leave off attributing the lack of appreciation to deficiencies in the thing, instead of yourself).

hornteacher

"We make going to the opera snobbish only if we want to imagine that it is."

Agree with this reply wholeheartedly.  It applies to concerts, ballets, and other Art Music events too.

bosniajenny

Interesting stuff (as it happens I am in Sarajevo listening to Sarah Connolly/Handel.....)

I think what Thicknesse has done is to articulate what a lot of philistines feel about opera; and it is no use him saying "I loved it once". Find something more positive to say, if you did, mate! He sounds like a rejected suitor, and I wonder who has rejected him. Bitternesse would be a better name......

Yes, I agree that there are aspects of opera that can grate on those of us who are neither monied nor snobs (the cost of going to the House or Glyndebourne is certainly one of them). But I tried to make an impression on my future partner by taking her to Rosenkavalier (there it is again!) at ENO, in the cheap(er) seats, and I did have to save up even for those - worked, too, I'm glad to say! In the old days I was a student Friend of Covent Garden (for student read poor) and got into rehearsals and had access to cheap gallery seats; not the most comfortable for Wagner, but what the heck, I was younger then! Anyone can "join in" if they are prepared to make the effort.

And yes, "the people" (whoever they are?) do have access to opera, in places like central and eastern Europe. When I lived in Bucharest I had an abonnement and saw a huge variety of opera for pennies - the audience were just ordinary Romanians who had saved up for a treat because going to the opera is part of their culture. It is meretricious to suggest that the opera audience is in general there because of snobbery - some of them MAY be, but so what? Some people go to Royal Ascot for snobbery reasons and all anyone does is have a bit of a giggle at their silly clothes.....(and come to think of it, even the Royal meeting is subsidised by, effectively, the betting public, most of whom wouldn't dream of wanting to go, much preferring a cold and wet day out at Cheltenham in November!)

I am travelling back to UK on 2 June, unfortunately, and may not make it home in time for the debate on R3. Will be interesting, though.

knight66

The quote from Thicknesse above looked exactly like the kind of dubious writing we experience from our own frequent visitor, Sean. But in its fuller expression the divergence betwen the two became blessedly clear.

As is contained within the Guardian's ripost, 'Thicknesse's caricature of "considerable sections of the audience" as "socially ambitious" and "conspicuous spenders" ' is indeed wide of the mark.

I spent years as a season ticket holder at Scottish Opera and the people I sat with in the cheap seats were certainly there out of love for the music; the Gods was pretty much a style free zone. Nor would I just sweep all those in the more expensive seats into the ......there for the social cachet......category.

Subsequently, though I now go rarely and then to middle price seats, I don't see much, in ENO for example, of the Puttin' on the Ritz brigade and when I have been to festival opera, the people I get into conversations with are often devotees who do this and only this for their holidays.

But it will always remain a marginal interest, that does not mean fundamentally elitist any more than train spotting which is almost free, but is certainly a marginal interest. Of course I do know the analogy there cannot bear much weight, as no one at all would gravitate towards spotting for its social cachet or style.

Lots of good contra arguments have been made above, but a couple that I don't think have been expressed.....

Opera enters many homes by way of Radio, TV, CDs and DVDs, many of the people in these homes do not, for various reasons, ever go near an opera house. I don't think we can easily calculate the real audience for the artform, even if only in its aural format.

Opera is not some single category art form. Some are for cannary fanciers, some are performed for the beauty or excitement of the music, others raise our spirits and make us laugh, some engage us as adults and tell us about life and death in an intelligent and affecting way.

Not all opera goers respond equally to all this range of operas. I am unlikely to go to another performance of Thais, but I will be there for Tristan or Peter Grimes at every opportunity.

Mike

DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: bosniajenny on May 28, 2010, 11:55:14 PMI am travelling back to UK on 2 June, unfortunately, and may not make it home in time for the debate on R3. Will be interesting, though.

I'm sure it will be on the BBC iPlayer once you get back to the UK for a week or so :) 

Quote from: knight on May 29, 2010, 01:38:17 AM
Nor would I just sweep all those in the more expensive seats into the ......there for the social cachet......category.

Subsequently, though I now go rarely and then to middle price seats, I don't see much, in ENO for example, of the Puttin' on the Ritz brigade and when I have been to festival opera, the people I get into conversations with are often devotees who do this and only this for their holidays.

In fairness to some operatic ventures, they are partly hostages to fortune in this respect - if they depend heavily or entirely upon private and corporate sponsorship for the existence (as many do in W Europe) then they are obliged to entertain the piper (and his corporate clients) when he calls the tune.   Whether we like it or not, opera has a perceived "prestige" which makes it suitable for corporate hospitality on a high scale... it may or may not be to the taste of those thus entertained, but they're socially obligated to display their alleged fine taste in such matters and evince their appreciation of the large amount of money that's been lavished on their evening's programme. 

But there are differing approaches to this.  The ROH manage to do it quite neatly, in fact - VIP guests are whisked off to private dining-rooms or suites in the intervals, and ushered back to their seats just in time for the second half.  But it's not always like this.  Some of Thicknesse's challenges do indeed ring true, as I can personally testify from having once spent an afternoon at Garsington (at the invitation of a performer there, I ought to add - I don't have that kind of budget!).  This, I'm afraid, is purely a hee-hawing social occasion in which there's an interval during which opera is performed.  The pseudo-Glyndebourne event (the same evening dress & picnic set-up) and higher-than-Glyndebourne prices really can't be justified by the artistic product - a cast and orchestra of music students.  Unfortunately it typifies an approach in which no-one really cares much about the performance standards, as they are really just an incidental to the corporate jolly which is the real rationale for the event.  In fact there are more and more of these things springing up...   when I was in the UK a few months ago I got invited (by the harpsichord-tuner, who'd been given a pair of tickets he didn't want) to another new "country house opera" event...   yet again the dickie-bows and champagne-glasses were in great evidence, but the performance was grimly awful beyond all believing.  I fear Mumsy & Dadsy were involved in the casting :(  I promise I'm not being churlish or unfair here, as I had gone along hoping it would be very good.
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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

knight66

#10
Yes, but these kind of patronage affairs are relatively rare and most people remain unaware of them. What are in essence private performances more akin to how rich patrons carried on a couple of hundred years ago are quite apart from the mainstream and I don't think they can be held up as evidence of elitism sitting at the core of the artform.

There are very many private performances given by such as Beyonce, paid for by the uber-rich for their friends to attend, social events and about money, power, cachet etc, But no one suggests that these performers are involved in an elitist category of performance.

At Glyndbourne I was taken aback at the likes of the price of the programmes, the cost of drinks.....but you don't have to buy them and the cheaper tickets there are akin to the cost of going to a premier league football match, which also has its share of corporate entertainment.

I have been involved in concert performances where the corporate guests breached normal etiquette. On one occasion, Muti stopped the show as these grand circle latecomers returned from the interval late and noisily chatting, though the music had begun. He crossed his arms and stared at them. The eventual silence stretched, along with the tension, as his body language made it clear just what he thought. He allowed the embarrassed silence to go on for perhaps a minute, then whipped round to face us, clearly furious.

He then restarted the entire piece.

My own parents have been provided with this kind of hospitality. Their interest in Carmen was sub-basement, but they wanted to go for the 'occasion' and so they could say they has seen Domingo.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: knight on May 29, 2010, 02:42:02 AMMy own parents have been provided with this kind of hospitality. Their interest in Carmen was sub-basement, but they wanted to go for the 'occasion' and so they could say they has seen Domingo.


At the NORMA I went to this week (mentioned in another thread), when the flute introduction to "Casta Diva" began, a sea of mobile phones appeared throughout the auditorium of people who wanted to film the aria :(

In fairness to Glyndebourne, although previous members of the Christie family had been so legendarily snobbish that Britten lampooned them magnificently in ALBERT HERRING...   the present Glyndebourne management have changed their tune considerably,  and are doing everything reasonably possible to damp-down the Gussie Fink-Nottles and promote Glyndebourne as a primarily musical event.  The new theatre has acted as a catalyst in this respect.  The nature of the Glyndebourne tour - which used to be essentially "the understudies on tour" - has changed too, and they now pull-in international singers for this too, which has (correctly) been renamed "Glyndebourne On Tour".  Most of the tour casts have been seen in their roles during the main Glyndebourne season, and they're now definitely "Glyndebourne second cast" performers, instead of merely understudy cannon-fodder.

Although I can't say I like the Hooray element much at Glyndebourne, I have a sneaking admiration for their unstated artistic policy that "you can't put a price on excellence".  The rest of Britain's opera companies pay a heavy price for their reliance on State Funding - and it now seem they can expect to see that funding slashed mercilessly in the upcoming Budget.
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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

Renfield

#12
Quote from: False_Dmitry on May 29, 2010, 03:18:15 AM
A couple of Japanese tourists sitting next to me during a concert performance of 'Macbeth' in the last EIF actually went one step further, and brought their camera! Thankfully, they were too far, and the Usher Hall too dark, to get a good picture, so they soon gave up.


Eugene,

Some people will film anything and everything. I sat on a long bus ride in Turkey, the man in front of me filmed about 80% of it and I did say to my wife to avoid them if we ever bumped into them again. I did not want to be subjected to their holiday movies.

I do encounter Japanese tourists in London taking very odd photos, I look to where the camera is pointed and am often puzzled.

In the concert hall, there needs to be action taken where people try to film or record or simply use their mobiles for texting. I have been to the cinema where people seem to be intent to multitask and can't just concentrate on the film, but either send a commentary to friends or perhaps chat about getting drunk the night before. The glow from their text screens is quite distracting.

Mike


knight66

FD, Re the Norma matter, people often do not care whether their behaviour spoils it for others, as long as they get what they want out of it. There is perhaps also some kind of change in society going on, where you have not 'been there' unless you can provide evidence and show off to your friends. What will Casta Diva recorded on a mobile be like? Pinky and Perky perhaps.

I agree with all of your subsequent remarks. The closed-club feeling of Glyndebourne was considerably moderated when the number of seats available was increased. I keep promising myself a return visit or two. Next year perhaps. That typical Crusader promise!

I am going to a Dorset Opera event in July. The standard is OK, goodish professional soloists, but an amateur look to it. But they are using some very good people to get it all onto the stage and there was some raw dramatic truth there that is sometimes missing from the glossier performances from the Nationals. Primarily it is a local and London friends audience, but at £50 a ticket, it feels expensive for what is to an extent a 'compromised' and perforce under rehearsed set of performances.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 03:25:33 AM
A couple of Japanese tourists sitting next to me during a concert performance of 'Macbeth' in the last EIF actually went one step further, and brought their camera! Thankfully, they were too far, and the Usher Hall too dark, to get a good picture, so they soon gave up.

The woman sitting next to me - clearly well-heeled from her wardrobe and demeanour - not only took her mobile phone out of her zippered hat-box-style handbag (clunking the lid as she did so), but asked me if I would hold the handbag while she was filming the aria  :o   The phone made a number of R2-D2-like noises as the camera program engaged...

Out of interest, does the Usher Hall make pre-concert announcements about the use of mobile phones and camera equipment, or do they assume a degree of normal civilised behaviour from their patrons?  Although I don't like these announcements greatly, they do make the rules clear - and thus enable Attendants to take action to prevent the rules being broken.

At the Theatre Luny in Moscow they go a step further - there's a recorded announcement from the Artistic Director, in which he entitles other theatregoers and members of the cast to "intervene appropriately on their own initiative" to the use of mobile phones, cameras, chit-chatters, and that the theatre takes no responsibility for those who choose to contravene the rules ;)   (I have seen an actor step into the audience to confiscate a mobile phone during a performance - the owner was having a conversation on it at the time).

Quote from: knight on May 29, 2010, 03:33:14 AM
The closed-club feeling of Glyndebourne was considerably moderated when the number of seats available was increased. I keep promising myself a return visit or two. Next year perhaps. That typical Crusader promise!

Please pass on our best regards to Mr de Niese :)

I've never seen Dorset Opera, although I worked with their previous MD for several years.  Anything which improves the coverage of classical music and opera in the regions has to be encouraged - I hope they can keep clear of things being "tatty" because they're done on a low budget?   My own belief here is that you should go at pieces with the resources you have (this might mean an "alternative view" production) - anything is better than a poor-man's-ham-dram attempt to be the Royal Opera on fourpence-ha'penny!   An inventive appoach will at least be more lively than a load of unconvincing baritones skulking around in penny-dreadful conspirator's capes :)  You have a right to something decent for £50 quid, those are West End prices!  What are they doing?



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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

knight66

Carmen, and for several of the performances they have Mignon Dunn no less. I will be interested to see how it goes. A friend is getting me into the dress rehearsal and I suspect Ms Dunn will not be required for that.

Last year they did Cav and Pag and despite the scenery and the crowd control style of chorus movement, there were really thrilling stretches and some first rate individual performances.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Renfield

#16
Quote from: False_Dmitry on May 29, 2010, 03:53:13 AM
The woman sitting next to me - clearly well-heeled from her wardrobe and demeanour - not only took her mobile phone out of her zippered hat-box-style handbag (clunking the lid as she did so), but asked me if I would hold the handbag while she was filming the aria  :o   The phone made a number of R2-D2-like noises as the camera program engaged...

Out of interest, does the Usher Hall make pre-concert announcements about the use of mobile phones and camera equipment, or do they assume a degree of normal civilised behaviour from their patrons?  Although I don't like these announcements greatly, they do make the rules clear - and thus enable Attendants to take action to prevent the rules being broken.

They do indeed. And, as of its return to use following an extensive refurbishment, there's a couple of discreet-but-visible banners, one on each side of the stage, reminding patrons to keep their mobile phones switched off.

Following last year's EIF, they even appended a separate note on the banners, about photography also being prohibited; though it remains to be seen whether this will have any effect. Certainly, the worst offender in that particular EIF was actually a baby, in that same 'Macbeth'!

And unfortunately they can't seem to ban those... Nor the infuriating digital watches proclaiming the time with a strategically ill-placed 'pip-pip'.

The new erato

Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 03:25:33 AM

I do encounter Japanese tourists in London taking very odd photos, I look to where the camera is pointed and am often puzzled.
Perhaps they collect pictures like we collect discs?  ;D

knight66

Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 04:36:05 AM

Certainly, the worst offender in that particular EIF was actually a baby, in that same 'Macbeth'!

And unfortunately they can't seem to ban those... Nor the infuriating digital watches proclaiming the time with a strategically ill-placed 'pip-pip'.

A long time ago in Oxford I went to an outdoor Shakespeare Macbeth. On Christchurch Meadow you can hear all the clocks chime, out of sync with one another. The chiming lasts over a minute. On the first stroke of eight Macbeth was into his .....'Is this a dagger I see before me?.... speech and in the middle of the sleepwalking scene they all struck 10....or rather what it felt like; 100.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Renfield on May 29, 2010, 04:36:05 AM
They do indeed. And, as of its return to use following an extensive refurbishment, there's a couple of discreet-but-visible banners, one on each side of the stage, reminding patrons to keep their mobile phones switched off.

The concert hall in question in Moscow has gone to the cost and trouble of signal-blocking hardware that prevents mobile phones being used for telephony ;)  But it can't disable their use as video-cameras :(
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"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere