Wildest/most extreme harmony?

[Josquin des Prez]

Bach's harmony is extreme compared to Handel, Rameau or any other Baroque composer (although Scarlatti is likely the closest).  You can find just about every standard jazz harmony somewhere in Bach's output as well as chromaticism equal to anything before Wagner

Compare Bach's Chaccone in Dm with Handel's Variations on the same theme to get an idea of Bach's greater sophistication

Good to see somebody who understand Bach's harmonic mastery wasn't limited to polyphony alone. Kudos for mentioned Scarlatti as well. As for Handel, he was a dramatist before he was a musician. Judging his music from a purely absolute point of view is taking it a bit out of context, even for a Baroque composer.

[Franco]

LOL, James, you really ought to give it a rest. 

It goes without saying that J.S. Bach is a towering musical genius among the greatest of composers if not arguably The Greatest Composer - but his great achievement will not be cheapened if you admit that he was not (to quote the thread title) a example of the wildest/most extreme harmony.

Sure, some passing chords created by his contrapuntal texture include some unusual vertical harmonies not thought of as typically Baroque - but these were passing dissonances which all resolved in the appropriate (to his time) manner.  Nothing wild or extreme there.

Now, maybe, to his contemporaries he was thought of as a wild and crazy chorder - but since then there have been some much wilder composers.  Not that they come remotely close to his genius.

[Franco]

LOL - I can see there is no reasoning with you on this matter.

[greg]

LOL - I can see there is no reasoning with you on this matter.

Obviously not. Let's just ignore him.

[greg]

Since you are so confident about such things, you must be right. Who's the big kahuna for exterior spiritual ecstasy?

'

It just wants attention.
And, although there's no sign for it, please don't feed it questions... 

[Josquin des Prez]

Scarlatti is so trite next to Bach, heck so is jazz.

Trite is too strong a word. Scarlatti may have been a lesser composer then Bach but he was too a genius, and while his works aren't as strictly polyphonic as those of Bach, his harmony was probably a bit more adventurous. As for Jazz, i think there is nothing in the entire classical canon that could compete with a solo by Coltrane in terms of rhythm and improvised, monophonic development.

[Josquin des Prez]

No he wasn't.'

Yes he was.

[Franco]

No he wasn't.'

"No he wasnt": a lesser composer than Bach or "No he wasn't": a genius - in your opinion, not that it matters - just curious.

[Josquin des Prez]

more adventurous than Bach? What a moronic statement.
You have no clue whatsoever. Ditto your brain-fart about Coltrane.

Perhaps adventurous is the wrong term. Playful might be more correct. And whats wrong with my Coltrane comment? Its the truth, isn't it? 

[jochanaan]

James and Josquin, I strongly suspect that JSB and Trane would have embraced each other as kindred spirits.  Have you both forgotten that Bach went down to a Leipzig coffeeshop every Friday to jam with the locals?

[Ten thumbs]

Returning to the subject, I wonder if any pianists out there would give me their opinions on what may or may not be a misprint. In Fanny Hensel's 4th Melody (Op5) bar 22 there is a rising arpeggio in that rare beast D# major against the F# major tonality. I have always played this as being in octaves but actually the score gives the ninth beat as C#D#A#C#Cx. This is a reprint of the original edition. As this alteration of the bass is quite consistent with the composer's idiom, I'm wondering if it may indeed be correct.

[Ugh]

Oh... my... God...
Luke, you're my hero! 

So, I found videos of the first two...
and found what I've been wanting to find forever now.

Examples of 17th century atonality and clusters! 

I was trying hard to imagine why absolutely NO composer of this time would ever experiment with such a thing- I mean, one or two in a hundred years would make sense, but none wouldn't. Looks like I was right- I just didn't know where to look. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/VK13g3twALc


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/BC2oaSAToRE

Another thing about that Biber piece is all those "modern" techniques: pulling strings, drumming on the wood and even stomping feet - which must have been fairly common even earlier as rythmic devices and probably sounded outdated at Biber's time

[abidoful]

LOT'S OF CHOPIN ! ! !  Remember they were written quite early in the 19th century, before Tristan and stuff;
- Many of the PRELUDES
- The FINALE of the B-flat minor SONATA composed in 1839 was quite "avantgarde". Schumann called it "...more mockery than music"(!)

[abidoful]

Hey, few come to my mind (don't know have these been mentioned);
J.S. Bach- St Matthew Passion, when Jesus dies on the cross, there is some wild things going on in KB
LvBeethoven- 9th Symphony las movement, there's a terrible roar right in the beginning

[Scarpia]

- The FINALE of the B-flat minor SONATA composed in 1839 was quite "avantgarde". Schumann called it "...more mockery than music"(!)

Well, I risk being pedantic, but there is no harmony in that movement, it is all a single melodic line in octaves, I believe.

[jochanaan]

Well, I risk being pedantic, but there is no harmony in that movement, it is all a single melodic line in octaves, I believe.

Most melodies imply harmonies, especially if there is no harmonic accompaniment.

[Grazioso]

Guillaume de Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame from the 14th century. Some outrageous moments that will make your hair stand on end